FAITH continued . . .

[Aaron]

I was wondering when someone would finally notice.

Every thing I've written in this thread from the very first post is a direct quote from John Calvin.

It was just a joke but meant to prove a point, which is that we (on both sides of this debate) are not very objective in dealing with each other or with scripture itself.

Now, before you all jump all over me. I freely admit that I took his quotes out of context and that his intent was not as it may appeared in the context of our discussion, but that was part of the point I wanted to prove. You can make anyone (even scripture) say whatever you want it to say when you pluck it from its context and use it as a means to support your own views. Though Calvin is probably less "Calvinistic" than some of you (in that he appears to be less dogmatic on the idea of limited atonement), I KNOW that he is in more agreement with you than with me.

I also acknowledge that you could have plucked quotes from Arminius or Wesley and probably fooled most of us, thus proving the same point I was attempting to show, which is:

1. Learn to be objective and less disagreeable just because someone "in the other camp" is posting.

2. Learn not to pull quotes out of context to support your view when clearly the author of that quote is not intending to address the point to which you are attempting to find support.

Thanks! :smilewinkgrin:

And you'll notice that I didn't argue with any point made.

Now that your little charade is over, perhaps you could answer the question I posed.

Where does faith come from? Do men have it by nature, or is it imparted some other way?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Deleted to keep the peace.

 

[Aaron]

Hey, don't be getting this thread closed so soon.

 

[Winman]

Where does faith come from? Do men have it by nature, or is it imparted some other way?

I can't answer for Skan, but I believe faith is a God-given ability that all men have. We exercise faith every day in numerous ways.

Now, to be saved, we cannot have any old faith. We must place our faith in Jesus Christ alone to save us. We are enabled to have this faith by the Word of God that reveals the grace of God to us.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Paul asks here how can a man believe in the Lord. Does he say that a person must be supernaturally regenerated to believe? No, but he does say they must hear of Jesus. And he asks how they can hear without a preacher. Then Paul goes on to say;

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Again, Paul does not mention here or anywhere else in scripture the necessity of being supernaturally regenerated to believe. He simply says they must hear the Word of God.

And this is what enables us to believe in Jesus, the Word of God. If not for the Word of God that revealed Jesus to us, no man would be able to believe, for no man can believe in something or someone he doesn't know of, or has never heard of. This is what I mean by being enabled, and this is exactly what the scriptures teach.

 

[Aaron]

What you describe as "old faith" is not faith at all, but the Scriptures you quoted do indeed describe the origin of faith. It cometh by hearing.

So to borrow a phrase from another book, how is it that some have ears to hear, and others do not?

 

[Winman]

What you describe as "old faith" is not faith at all, but the Scriptures you quoted do indeed describe the origin of faith. It cometh by hearing.

So to borrow a phrase from another book, how is it that some have ears to hear, and others do not?

Some men are honest with themselves, when the Word of God convicts them they are sinners who cannot save themselves, they accept this as truth. They also accept that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died for them and accept him as Savior.

Other men do not want to hear this. They want to believe themselves good, and able to earn salvation of their own merit. They are self righteous. The Lord himself explained this.

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

What was the difference between the Pharisee and this publican? The Pharisee trusted in his own righteousness, he was self righteous. The publican was humble, he saw himself as a sinner who could only rely on the great mercy of God and cast himself on this mercy.

And Jesus said the publican went down to his house justified with all his sins forgiven. But he did not hear the Pharisee, notice he said the Pharisee "prayed with himself". God does not hear the prayer of the self-righteous, but only the humble.

2 Chron 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

2 Chron 34:27 Because thine heart was tender, and thou didst humble thyself before God, when thou heardest his words against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, and humbledst thyself before me, and didst rend thy clothes, and weep before me; I have even heard thee also, saith the LORD.

When a man truly listens to the Word of God he will be humbled. He will be convicted of his sins. When a man thus humbled cries to God, God will hear that man. But he does not hear the proud and self-righteous.

 

[Skandelon]

What you describe as "old faith" is not faith at all, but the Scriptures you quoted do indeed describe the origin of faith. It cometh by hearing.

So to borrow a phrase from another book, how is it that some have ears to hear, and others do not?

It's called free will; and your attempt to get me to define what determines a free will to choose one way verses the other begs the question because it presumes a deterministic response is required.

I do agree with Winman, in that God gives man the ability to believe and many use this ability to believe lies (false religions etc). That is their free choice for which they will be held accountable. Why? Because they could have chosen otherwise.

This answer goes back to the post I made earlier showing the different models:

CALVINISM'S MODEL:
1. God gives grace prior to any positive response and this grace is not resistible.
2. As such, people are already lifted up higher by grace before they respond positively.
3. As such, people don't lift themselves up, God does.
4. As such, when people reject Christ, they do so because God withheld the grace they needed to accept Christ.
5. Hence, God does the lifting for some and also withholds the grace that is needed for the rest to accept thus bringing to fruition the sin of rejecting Christ.

Compare that to Arminianism which allows God's grace to be resisted:

ARMININISM'S MODEL
1. God gives grace prior to any human response.
2. As such, people are already lifted up higher by grace before they respond.
3. As such, people don't lift themselves up, God does.
4. As such, when people respond negatively, they jump off of the higher place God had lifted them to.
5. Hence, God does the lifting and people do the rejecting.

In both models God gets credit for those who accept because he does the lifting/enabling. But in your system God is culpable also for the rejecting because he denies what is needed for them to accept.

 

[psalms109:31]

Order

2 Timothy 2:
8 Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, 9 for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God’s word is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

11 Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

There is an order of things we trust in Jesus, we die with Him, we live with Him, if we endure we reign with Him. If we disown Him, He will not disown us. We are not trusting in our own faithfulness, taking our eyes of Jesus, but we are trusting in the faithfulness of Christ. When we remain in Him He cannot disown Himself. We are trusting in faith giving to us through the words of Jesus.

We are faithless, but Christ is faithful and His word is the truth. Without His word I still would be faithless, but He is faithful to do what He said He would do and that is what I depend on His word.

I know how Calvinist view these verses I don't mind them giving me answers to these verses they may give me more revelation. I would like to hear from non-Cal's.

 

[Skandelon]

I would like to hear from non-Cal's.

I'm sorry, what did you want to hear? Did you have a question? Do you want to know how we interpret those verses? Just wanted clarity before I responded...thanks

 

[psalms109:31]

I'm sorry, what did you want to hear? Did you have a question? Do you want to know how we interpret those verses? Just wanted clarity before I responded...thanks

I want to hear from both sides on these verses cals and non-cals. I see most Calvinist emphasize on the last verse

I see it as to remain in Christ even if we are faithless. In Christ we can't be disowned, because Christ can't disown Himself.

 

[Aaron]

It's called free will; and your attempt to get me to define what determines a free will to choose one way verses the other begs the question because it presumes a deterministic response is required.

I do agree with Winman, in that God gives man the ability to believe and many use this ability to believe lies (false religions etc). That is their free choice for which they will be held accountable. Why? Because they could have chosen otherwise.

Here's what you just said: Faith doesn't come. Faith already resides in an individual by nature. And faith is not believing, but choosing.

How does one choose something in which he does not believe?

 

[Skandelon]

Here's what you just said: Faith doesn't come.
Faith already resides in an individual by nature. And faith is not believing, but choosing.

Actually I said the ABILITY to believe resides in an individual. Why else would a child be pointed to as an example of what we must become like to enter his kingdom? Even experience shows that children are much more open to believing the gospel because they have not grown as hardened by the sin and influence of this dark world. The more one chooses to believe a lie the more hardened their heart grows toward the truth. This is a very biblically supported truth.

How does one choose something in which he does not believe?

I don't think you are choosing something you don't believe, I think you are choosing to believe something is true or false.

 

[Aaron]

So, then faith does not come by hearing the preaching of the Word of God. Men already possess it at birth and merely choose to exercise it based on their personal preferences.

 

[Skandelon]

So, then faith does not come by hearing the preaching of the Word of God.

Did you read what I wrote? Having the ability to believe truth is not equal to having faith in Christ before hearing about Him. How can they believe in that which they have not heard? Upon hearing the truth they have the God given ability to choose to believe it or reject it.

 

[Aaron]

Did you read what I wrote?

Yes, I did. I summarized it above and it's tragic that you don't know what faith is.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. It is not the choice of man, nor the result of a man's choice. It is an operation of the Spirit and an inevitable consequence of His work of regeneration and renewal, quite independent of the will and running of man.

 

[DHK]

Yes, I did. I summarized it above and it's tragic that you don't know what faith is.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. It is not the choice of man, nor the result of a man's choice. It is an operation of the Spirit and an inevitable consequence of His work of regeneration and renewal, quite independent of the will and running of man.

Faith is not JUST the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Faith is much more than that. A sinner must have faith to believe. God does not give spiritual gifts to condemned sinners. They must, out of their own faith, call upon His name or they cannot be saved. Where does their faith come from. It comes from hearing the Word of God, i.e., the gospel message, and being convinced that that message is true and able to save them. We don't believe in a nebulous existential superstitious message, but rather one that is intellectual, based on facts such as the resurrection of Christ. It is intelligent, contingent on the mind comprehending what the gospel teaches, so that man with his own understanding might in faith believe and be saved.

 

[quantumfaith]

Faith is not JUST the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Faith is much more than that. A sinner must have faith to believe. God does not give spiritual gifts to condemned sinners. They must, out of their own faith, call upon His name or they cannot be saved. Where does their faith come from. It comes from hearing the Word of God, i.e., the gospel message, and being convinced that that message is true and able to save them. We don't believe in a nebulous existential superstitious message, but rather one that is intellectual, based on facts such as the resurrection of Christ. It is intelligent, contingent on the mind comprehending what the gospel teaches, so that man with his own understanding might in faith believe and be saved.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1989/89july1.html

 

[Aaron]

Faith is not JUST the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Faith is much more than that. A sinner must have faith to believe. God does not give spiritual gifts to condemned sinners. They must, out of their own faith, call upon His name or they cannot be saved. Where does their faith come from.

It comes from the Holy Spirit.

It comes from hearing the Word of God, i.e., the gospel message, and being convinced that that message is true and able to save them.

It's the Holy Spirit that enlightens.

We don't believe in a nebulous existential superstitious message, but rather one that is intellectual, based on facts such as the resurrection of Christ. It is intelligent, contingent on the mind comprehending what the gospel teaches, so that man with his own understanding might in faith believe and be saved.

So, faith is a product of a carnal mind.

 

[quantumfaith]

It comes from the Holy Spirit.

It's the Holy Spirit that enlightens.

So, faith is a product of a carnal mind.

Yes, and also created in the imago dei.

 

[webdog]

Since we are on the topic of faith, just got done reading Matthew 8 and noticed Jesus' address of faith in two places:

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

26 He replied, “You of little faith, why are you so afraid?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.

If He supposedly gave them faith...why was He amazed at the faith of the centurion (that He gave), and why did He rebuke the lack of faith He failed to give?