FAITH continued . . .

[convicted1]

Here is something else that "popped" into my head; I know its scaaaarryyy:

Heb.12:1Before seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Greek word for "author": archēgos G747

Thayer's

1) the chief leader, prince

a) of Christ

2) one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer

3) the author


Greek word for "finisher": teleiōtēs G5051

Thayer's

1) a perfector

2) one who has in his own person raised faith to its perfection and so set before us the highest example of faith

So, it looks like it could also be stated, "the author and perfector of our faith". Perfect in some words actually means complete as well.


i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[DHK]

The reason why I didn't show you anything with scripture, Brother, is because I know you will say that I have ripped them out of context, when the fact remains that I did not....but I digress.

I did not say that faith does not come by hearing the word of God, but a person can hear the Word preached in power, and unless God enlightens their mind, they will not understand much of what is being preached. It takes God to give us the understanding of His Word, and not man.

I believe in the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Read about the ministry of the Holy Spirit in John 16. He came to convict the world of sin, of righteous, and of judgment. But the Calvinist will even do away with that and teach irresistible grace. He teaches that the unsaved must come to salvation because he is drawn with the grace of the Holy Spirit which cannot be resisted. This is foolishness. And it in no way demonstrates that God gives faith. The Word of God gives a person faith to believe. The Holy Spirit convicts the same person of his sin. Both must work together.

Rom. 10:9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I am using the Romans 10 passage to prove a point. You can go to church and not really go to church. What do I mean? I went to church many times before I was saved, but serving God was something I did not want to do at that time(I did this at times just to make someone happy). Sure, I heard the message preached, but I was hearing it with my "natural ears", and not the "spiritual ears" that my "inner man" has. Now, when God began drawing me, I went to church then. I wanted to know what I must do to be saved!! My "inner ears" were attentative to what the preacher was preaching, and God would show me some things along the way.

My position is proved and strengthened by the Scripture you quoted. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. They cannot believe unless they hear the word of God. That Word must come by a preacher being sent to them. It says nothing about God giving the unsaved faith. Why quote Scripture that does nothing to further your belief?

Your like the man who claims that Fords are better vehicles than imports. But you keep repeating the same mantra without any evidence to back it up. You will even give evidence to the contrary and say it supports your view when it doesn't.

Here is something to ponder, Brother DHK:

Heb. 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Here we can see a "us" and "them". "Us" heard the Word with faith, and will enter into His rest. "Them" heard the Word, but not being mixed with faith, it profitted them nothing.

You can hear the Word all your life, but until you believe in God, it will not happen. You can not have faith until God gives it to you, as a gift from Him to you.

Rom. 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If we get any understanding whatsoever concerning His Word, it comes from Him, including faith.

i am I AM's!!
Willis

The point Paul was making was a contrast of believers to unbelievers. Those who read the Bible and are not saved will not have the discernment that the believers have because they do not have the Spirit of God dwelling in them. Paul is making a contrast and is speaking to Christians about the topic of illumination.

He is not speaking about God giving faith to the unsaved. He says nothing about that topic, and you still have not given a single verse that says that God gives faith to the unsaved. He doesn't. The Holy Spirit convicts men of sin. That is the best that you can do.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
The belief is man's own belief.
He must be confident that the person he is believing is the person presented to him in the gospel message--that is, the One who died for the penalty of his sins and offers him eternal life. That is why a clear presentation of the gospel is so important. Along with that that message the Holy Spirit must convict him of his sinful conviction.

That is why we have two verses in the Bible that directly deal with the new birth.
In John 3:5 You must be born of water and of the Spirit. The emphasis here is on the Holy Spirit.

In 1Peter 1:23 You must be born again ...by the Word of God.
--Both are necessary.
However nowhere in the Bible does it say that God gives the unregenerate faith. You teach this error as if it is truth. It is not; it is still error, and always will be.

 

[convicted1]

I believe in the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Read about the ministry of the Holy Spirit in John 16. He came to convict the world of sin, of righteous, and of judgment. But the Calvinist will even do away with that and teach irresistible grace. He teaches that the unsaved must come to salvation because he is drawn with the grace of the Holy Spirit which cannot be resisted. This is foolishness. And it in no way demonstrates that God gives faith. The Word of God gives a person faith to believe. The Holy Spirit convicts the same person of his sin. Both must work together.

I agree with this in that it takes the Holy Ghost to convict us of our lost condition. I also agree that it can be resisted, because I did for MANY years, I shamefully admit. But it does support my position. Until God showed me my lost condition, I didn't even know I was a sinner in His eyes. He opened my eyes to this.

Now how about the verse that states that He is the "AUTHOR and FINISHER of OUR FAITH????(Heb. 12:2): The word "author" is archēgos G747

Thayer's:
1) the chief leader, prince

a) of Christ

2) one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer

3) the author

Webster's definition of "author":

1au·thor noun \ˈȯ-thər\
Definition of AUTHOR
1a : one that originates or creates :
2: the writer of a literary work (as a book)

Webster's definition of "finisher"

1fin·ish verb \ˈfi-nish\
Definition of FINISH
intransitive verb
1a : to come to an end : terminate b : end 1b
2a : to come to the end of a course, task, or undertaking b : to end relations
3: to end a competition in a specified manner or position

Now the Greek word for "finisher": teleiōtēs G5051

Thayer's:

1) a perfector

2) one who has in his own person raised faith to its perfection and so set before us the highest example of faith

According to Heb. 12:2, faith starts and ends with Jesus.

My position is proved and strengthened by the Scripture you quoted. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. They cannot believe unless they hear the word of God. That Word must come by a preacher being sent to them. It says nothing about God giving the unsaved faith. Why quote Scripture that does nothing to further your belief?

Look Brother, anyone can hear the Word preached, but unless God enlightens their minds, it will not penetrate their heart. Man of his own will not come to God; it takes Him drawing him/her. I am one who holds to FW as much as, if not more than, anyone on here, but I couldn't believe in God(saving faith I mean), until He first, showed me how lost I was, and secondly, drawing me to Him. If I didn't have faith in Him when He began drawing me, I would not have come to Him begging for my life to be saved.

Your like the man who claims that Fords are better vehicles than imports. But you keep repeating the same mantra without any evidence to back it up. You will even give evidence to the contrary and say it supports your view when it doesn't.

First off, I like Chevy's and Dodge!! :thumbs: :laugh: The way you are posting, faith comes either "during" of "after" they are saved?? Faith comes before salvation!!

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

In 1Peter 1:23 You must be born again ...by the Word of God.
--Both are necessary.
However nowhere in the Bible does it say that God gives the unregenerate faith. You teach this error as if it is truth. It is not; it is still error, and always will be.

Well, Brother, I have really enjoyed this, but we are of opposing views, I reckon. I do not disagree with what you posted here, nor with a whole lot of the other, but until God enlightens us, we can not even understand one word of it.

Here is a scenario I will give you, and I preached this at my home church before, and they agreed with this wholeheartedly. Now, take the Ethiopian that lives in the uttermost remote part. He has never heard the "gospel" preached. Can he be saved without ever hearing a preacher? You betcha!! And I'll prove it:

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Apostle Paul put the Gospel in its proper context right here. The "gospel" is something that man preaches. But the Gospel, IS God's power to save a lost individual. You can hear the "gospel message" your whole life, and still die lost. It takes God to give THE Gospel!! When God came to me and showed me lost, He showed me THE Gospel right there, but I was unwilling to surrender to Him.
Have a good weekend, Brother!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Iconoclast]

Good post Willis :thumbsup:

DhK;

I believe in the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Read about the ministry of the Holy Spirit in John 16. He came to convict the world of sin, of righteous, and of judgment. But the Calvinist will even do away with that and teach irresistible grace. He teaches that the unsaved must come to salvation because he is drawn with the grace of the Holy Spirit which cannot be resisted. This is foolishness. And it in no way demonstrates that God gives faith. The Word of God gives a person faith to believe. The Holy Spirit convicts the same person of his sin. Both must work together.

DHK,
This statement shows a complete lack of comprehension of the biblical calvinist position.
Irresitable grace does not do away with the conviction of The Spirit of God

For you to say so is as you say foolishness.Some of you that post against calvinism do not demonstrate that you have an understanding of it.
If you did maybe you would believe it as well.

 

[DHK]

DHK,
This statement shows a complete lack of comprehension of the biblical calvinist position.
Irresitable grace does not do away with the conviction of The Spirit of God

Willis admitted he resisted the Holy Spirit. Your dispute must be with him as much as with me. It is also with the Word of God.

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51)

Stephen plainly stated that not only those of his generation resisted the Holy Spirit at that time, but their fathers of previous generations did the same. It is plain as the nose on your face that the Holy Spirit can be resisted. Why then teach "Irresistable Grace" when it is obvious when it can be resisted?

For you to say so is as you say foolishness.Some of you that post against calvinism do not demonstrate that you have an understanding of it.
If you did maybe you would believe it as well.

I post against that which is purported to be Calvinism on this board. The Calvinists on this board contradict each other. I simply debate what is posted. The technicalities of Calvinism I will leave up to you. I will answer according to what is posted. Fair enough? So, if foolishness is posted, I will answer Biblically; and my Biblical answer will sound like foolishness to the poster, because of the position he has taken.

 

[DHK]

I agree with this in that it takes the Holy Ghost to convict us of our lost condition. I also agree that it can be resisted, because I did for MANY years, I shamefully admit. But it does support my position. Until God showed me my lost condition, I didn't even know I was a sinner in His eyes. He opened my eyes to this.

Now how about the verse that states that He is the "AUTHOR and FINISHER of OUR FAITH????(Heb. 12:2): The word "author" is archēgos G747

Thayer's:
1) the chief leader, prince

a) of Christ

2) one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer

3) the author

Webster's definition of "author":

1au·thor noun \ˈȯ-thər\
Definition of AUTHOR
1a : one that originates or creates :
2: the writer of a literary work (as a book)

Webster's definition of "finisher"

1fin·ish verb \ˈfi-nish\
Definition of FINISH
intransitive verb
1a : to come to an end : terminate b : end 1b
2a : to come to the end of a course, task, or undertaking b : to end relations
3: to end a competition in a specified manner or position

Now the Greek word for "finisher": teleiōtēs G5051

Thayer's:

1) a perfector

2) one who has in his own person raised faith to its perfection and so set before us the highest example of faith

According to Heb. 12:2, faith starts and ends with Jesus.

I agree that Christ is the Author and Finisher of our Faith, that Faith being Biblical Christianity, the same word being used by Jude when he said that we must "contend for the Faith." It has nothing to do with the word "believe," or "have faith," the verb form of the word, the action that we must take to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. "The Faith," and have faith are two different things.

Look Brother, anyone can hear the Word preached, but unless God enlightens their minds, it will not penetrate their heart. Man of his own will not come to God; it takes Him drawing him/her. I am one who holds to FW as much as, if not more than, anyone on here, but I couldn't believe in God(saving faith I mean), until He first, showed me how lost I was, and secondly, drawing me to Him. If I didn't have faith in Him when He began drawing me, I would not have come to Him begging for my life to be saved.

I don't disagree with that. When I came to Christ, I had been a Catholic for twenty years. Unlike others that you have referenced, I got saved the first time I heard the gospel. That may be unusual, but it is what happened.

First off, I like Chevy's and Dodge!! :thumbs: :laugh: The way you are posting, faith comes either "during" of "after" they are saved?? Faith comes before salvation!!

Exactly. Faith comes before salvation. If I purchase a car I must have faith in the manual of the car that all that is in the manual is correct information. If the manual is wrong I may do damage to the vehicle. Thus the advice: read the manual first (but how many of us do that )
Either way I put faith in the maker of the car that the car is going to operate, and when I put the key in the ignition and turn it, I put faith in the maker of the car that the engine will start and I will be able to go. That faith does not come from God. It is confidence in the word of another, in this case the maker of the auto.
Biblically I put faith in word of the one who made me and gave me his word. His word says that I can have salvation and eternal life. I put my confidence in his message. How much more confidence can I put in a perfect God with a perfect message, whose promises never fail! When I do that, the Faith (salvation) that is given me, he authors and finishes from the beginning to the end.

John 8:24

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Unbelief is a terrible thing.

Well, Brother, I have really enjoyed this, but we are of opposing views, I reckon. I do not disagree with what you posted here, nor with a whole lot of the other, but until God enlightens us, we can not even understand one word of it.

We probably agree on more than we disagree.

Here is a scenario I will give you, and I preached this at my home church before, and they agreed with this wholeheartedly. Now, take the Ethiopian that lives in the uttermost remote part. He has never heard the "gospel" preached. Can he be saved without ever hearing a preacher? You betcha!! And I'll prove it:

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Apostle Paul put the Gospel in its proper context right here. The "gospel" is something that man preaches. But the Gospel, IS God's power to save a lost individual. You can hear the "gospel message" your whole life, and still die lost. It takes God to give THE Gospel!! When God came to me and showed me lost, He showed me THE Gospel right there, but I was unwilling to surrender to Him.
Have a good weekend, Brother!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

I don't disagree with that. The faith comes from the message. The conviction of sin from the Holy Spirit; salvation is all of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Willis admitted he resisted the Holy Spirit. Your dispute must be with him as much as with me. It is also with the Word of God.

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51)

Stephen plainly stated that not only those of his generation resisted the Holy Spirit at that time, but their fathers of previous generations did the same. It is plain as the nose on your face that the Holy Spirit can be resisted. Why then teach "Irresistable Grace" when it is obvious when it can be resisted?
I post against that which is purported to be Calvinism on this board. The Calvinists on this board contradict each other. I simply debate what is posted. The technicalities of Calvinism I will leave up to you. I will answer according to what is posted. Fair enough? So, if foolishness is posted, I will answer Biblically; and my Biblical answer will sound like foolishness to the poster, because of the position he has taken.

DHK,
YOU QUOTE THIS;

Stephen plainly stated that not only those of his generation resisted the Holy Spirit at that time, but their fathers of previous generations did the same. It is plain as the nose on your face that the Holy Spirit can be resisted. Why then teach "Irresistable Grace" when it is obvious when it can be resisted?

Those who resisted the Holy Spirit are in hell now.No one disputes that and if you understood the calvinistic position you also would know this!

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace. ( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )
In point 4 of the 1689 the language is clear....only the elect are effectually called.....that is why it is 100% effectual..God plans to seek and to save that which is lost...His elect sheep...he finds all of them.


here is from the A Baptist Catechism,with Commentary, by WR.Downing,on effectual calling;

The Scriptures distinguish between an outward or external, general call to
salvation which is to be made through the free offer of the gospel to all men
without discrimination or distinction, and the personal, internal, effectual call
to salvation. This distinction is made by context and implication, i.e., the
doctrinal context in which the term occurs (e.g., Jn. 6:44–45; Rom. 8:28–30; 1
151
Tim. 1:9; 1 Pet. 2:9), the implications of that context (e.g., Rom. 9:23–24;
Eph. 4:1; Heb. 9:15), or the contrast with the general call (e.g., Matt. 22:14)
serve to make the necessary distinction. This individual, internal or effectual
call to salvation has been variously termed “the effectual call,” “effectual
calling,” “irresistible grace,” “infallible grace,” or “efficacious grace” to
distinguish it from the outward and general call through the gospel.
The gospel is to be preached to all men without distinction or
discrimination (Matt. 28:18–20; Mk. 16:15; Lk. 24:47; Acts 1:8; 17:30–31).
This gospel proclamation—the “free offer” of the gospel—declares that God
is absolutely righteous and holy, and that he is sworn to punish sin; that man
by nature is fallen, sinful, and under Divine wrath and condemnation; and that
redemption has been accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ for sinners
through his active and passive obedience. Sinners are urged to turn from their
sin in repentance and look to Jesus Christ in faith as Lord and Savior, and thus
be forgiven of their sins and be reconciled unto God through the imputed
righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. Sinners must believe (Acts 16:31), and
they must repent (Mk. 1:15; Acts 17:31; 26:18–20). If sinners come to Christ
in saving faith and repentance, they will be saved—delivered from and
forgiven of their sins and be reconciled to a righteous, just and holy God (Jn.
6:37; Rom. 3:23–26). See Question 34.
This outward or general call thus goes forth in and through the message of
the gospel—a call to repentance and faith (Acts 17:30–31). It is often either
rejected or the claims of the gospel are misrepresented or misunderstood
(Matt. 7:21–23; 13:5–6, 20–21; Acts 8:13; 1 Cor. 15:2; Heb. 6:1–6). It is
rejected or misappropriated because it comes in word only and not also in the
saving power of the Holy Spirit (Jn. 3:3, 5, 7–8; 6:44–45; 1 Cor. 2:4–5; 1
Thess. 1:4–5; 2:13). It is rejected because of the condition of the sinner by
nature as a fallen, sinful being (1 Cor. 2:14); because of the nature of sin; and
because of a superior, evil power, which effectively keeps sinners from
comprehending the truth of the gospel (2 Cor. 4:3–6). Further, it may be
received in a defective and temporary way through misunderstanding, a fear
of judgment, or through a psychological or emotional reaction (Matt. 13:20–
22; Mk. 4:16–19; Lk. 8:13–14).
The glory of the grace of God in salvation is that he speaks life to the
sinner who is in a state of being a spiritual corpse (Jn. 3:3, 5; Eph. 2:4–5), re–
creates the image of God in him anew spiritually, morally and intellectually
(Eph. 4:22–24; Col. 3:9–10), breaks the reigning power of sin (Rom. 6:14,
17–18), removes the innate hatred against himself and his Law (Rom. 8:6–8),
and removes the blinding power of Satan (2 Cor. 4:3–6), so the sinner can
freely and gladly embrace Christ as preached in the gospel. This efficacious
call comes in the context of the gospel declaration and not apart from it. Any
teaching which denigrates gospel preaching or biblical evangelism, or seeks
other avenues to move men’s hearts is decidedly unscriptural.

 

[convicted1]

Willis admitted he resisted the Holy Spirit. Your dispute must be with him as much as with me. It is also with the Word of God.

Hey!! Don't sic'em on me, too!! LOL

 

[convicted1]

I agree that Christ is the Author and Finisher of our Faith, that Faith being Biblical Christianity, the same word being used by Jude when he said that we must "contend for the Faith." It has nothing to do with the word "believe," or "have faith," the verb form of the word, the action that we must take to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. "The Faith," and have faith are two different things.

I think I know where our differences are at concerning this topic. Do you hold to a literal interpretation of Romans 10:9-17? I see this through a spiritual interpretation. Here's why. If you hold to the literal stance that faith comes by hearing, and that a "mouth confession" must be made in order to be saved, you have cut the "deaf/mute" people completely out. They can not "hear" the word in order to get faith, neither can they confess verbally with their lips in order to be saved. My wife has very good hearing, but in gospel terms, she is as deaf as a door. I witness to her, but it seems to no avail. The hearing of the Gospel(God drawing someone) must come from the ears of the "inner man". Think about this. Our natural man is of the earth, but our soul comes directly from God. Our natural body was created seperated from Him because it came from the ground He cursed. When God communes with us, He communes with the "inner man", because it came from Him. The natural man was made imperfect, and will be imperfect until He comes and raises it up on the resurrection day(I am talking about His children that He saved). So regardless how much He delivered us from when He saved us, He did not save our natural body, only our soul. This is why I hold to the spiritual interpretation of Romans 10:9-17. I am not saying that someone can't be saved that way, but that is not the only way He saves someone.

I don't disagree with that. When I came to Christ, I had been a Catholic for twenty years. Unlike others that you have referenced, I got saved the first time I heard the gospel. That may be unusual, but it is what happened.

(((((AMEN!!!!!))))) That is wonderful to hear!!

Exactly. Faith comes before salvation. If I purchase a car I must have faith in the manual of the car that all that is in the manual is correct information. If the manual is wrong I may do damage to the vehicle. Thus the advice: read the manual first (but how many of us do that )
Either way I put faith in the maker of the car that the car is going to operate, and when I put the key in the ignition and turn it, I put faith in the maker of the car that the engine will start and I will be able to go. That faith does not come from God. It is confidence in the word of another, in this case the maker of the auto.
Biblically I put faith in word of the one who made me and gave me his word. His word says that I can have salvation and eternal life. I put my confidence in his message. How much more confidence can I put in a perfect God with a perfect message, whose promises never fail! When I do that, the Faith (salvation) that is given me, he authors and finishes from the beginning to the end.

But again, how can you even put faith in the message being preached if God doesn't enlighten your understanding? I truly don't think there's a "whisker's difference" in our stances, and may be just talking past each other. If you don't put your faith/trust in God, how can you understand anything you read concerning the bible, or what is being preached? When God convicted me of my sins, I began reading His Word, wanting to know what I needed to do in order to be saved. I went to church wanting to know what God would give His called men to present to me that would draw me closer to Him. I didn't know how to get saved, but I put my faith(that was given by Him) in Him, knowing deep down, that if I would call out in the right way, He would hear my sad cries, and lift me out of the miry clay, set my feet upon a(THE) Rock, establish my goings, and put a new song in my heart, even praises unto His name!!

I don't disagree with that. The faith comes from the message. The conviction of sin from the Holy Spirit; salvation is all of God.

I agree with this. Faith does come in the message, in the Word of God. But here is what the Word of God is:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I know that you already knew this. That being said, the Word and the Gospel are two different things. The Word is holy, clean, pure, sweet to the soul, pristine, and any other word that means "clean" you can think of. We we talk about the Word, it sends goosebumps going over me!! The Gospel is the Word preached in POWER!!! As I have heard many old time preachers say, "If God doesn't season what I say with the holy Ghost, it won't go anywhere but from my mouth to the ground!!" We can get up in front of 10,000 lost people and read the Word to them, and that's always a good thing, but the Gospel must come from God, if it is save anyone of those 10,000 sinners. See where I am coming from, Brother??


i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[DHK]

DHK,
Those who resisted the Holy Spirit are in hell now.No one disputes that and if you understood the calvinistic position you also would know this!

You can quote Calvinism to me all you want; until you are red in the face.
First, I said I respond to what those on the board post.
Second, it is evident that I don't believe in Calvinism.
Third, I gave you Scripture that proves people can resist the Holy Spirit.
Fourth, writing to believers Paul said: "Grieve not the Holy Spirit," which is also a form of resisting. Would they also be in hell?
He also said, "Quench not the Holy Spirit," which also would be a form of resisting the Holy Spirit. Would those believers be in Hell today?

And fifth, through my own experience, I have seen my daughter resist the Holy Spirit many times in her teen years. I believe she is saved now. But conviction of sin would come upon her time and time again, and she would not get saved. She is not in hell today. I believe she is saved, having finally submitted to the Lord.
That happens to many people. They do not get saved the first time they hear the gospel, and even the first time they are convicted of the Holy Spirit to be saved. Often they resist the Holy Spirit and God gives many chances for them to be saved. If he only gave one and only one chance for people to be saved, where would we all be today??

 

[Iconoclast]

You can quote Calvinism to me all you want; until you are red in the face.
First, I said I respond to what those on the board post.
Second, it is evident that I don't believe in Calvinism.
Third, I gave you Scripture that proves people can resist the Holy Spirit.
Fourth, writing to believers Paul said: "Grieve not the Holy Spirit," which is also a form of resisting. Would they also be in hell?
He also said, "Quench not the Holy Spirit," which also would be a form of resisting the Holy Spirit. Would those believers be in Hell today?

And fifth, through my own experience, I have seen my daughter resist the Holy Spirit many times in her teen years. I believe she is saved now. But conviction of sin would come upon her time and time again, and she would not get saved. She is not in hell today. I believe she is saved, having finally submitted to the Lord.
That happens to many people. They do not get saved the first time they hear the gospel, and even the first time they are convicted of the Holy Spirit to be saved. Often they resist the Holy Spirit and God gives many chances for them to be saved. If he only gave one and only one chance for people to be saved, where would we all be today??

DHK,
I posted a new thread with some helpful links to allow you to have a more complete understanding of these truths.

you say;

Third, I gave you Scripture that proves people can resist the Holy Spirit.
Fourth, writing to believers Paul said: "Grieve not the Holy Spirit," which is also a form of resisting. Would they also be in hell?
He also said, "Quench not the Holy Spirit," which also would be a form of resisting the Holy Spirit. Would those believers be in Hell today?

people resist the Holy Spirit.Many go to hell in their rebellion.
That is not what irresistable grace is about. It means for the elect,they will not ultimately resist, but will be enabled to believe.It is completely effectual.
Your objections have no merit.....grieving and quenching have to do with sin in a believers life, who already have the Spirit.
That you offer this shows again you do not have a grasp on the issue.If you want to resist truth you can. But I would not recommend it.
Your railing against calvinism is keeping you in darkness to these things.

To be quite honest...I do not believe you can give a biblical response to the posted resources,so you side step them,bec ause to post such error exposes the error of your system.