Faith is not a choice

[Luke2427]

You do not CHOOSE to believe things. You are persuded by information that enters your sphere of observation to believe in things.

Take gravity for example. Do you anchor yourself to the earth everyday in fears that gravity will give way and the centripetal force of earth's spinning will hurl you out into space?
No.
You have put your faith in gravity and your life shows it.

When did you CHOOSE to put your faith in gravity?

Never.

You have no CHOICE BUT to believe in it. The information you have received CAUSES you to believe in it.

Try as you may, you cannot now choose to STOP believing in it.

Faith is not a choice. It is something that happens to us caused by information that enters our minds and persuades us.

That's one of the many reasons Calvinism presents a much better soteriology than other theologies.

It is consistent with the the invincible fact that faith is NOT a choice.

The problem with non-cal soteriology is that it teaches that we are saved by grace through choice.

But the Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through FAITH.

These are two very different things.

 

[Revmitchell]

You do not CHOOSE to believe things.

<-----This does not logically add up to this------>

You are persuded by information that enters your sphere of observation to believe in things.

 

[Luke2427]

<-----This does not logically add up to this------>

Sure it does.

I am persuaded by the information that floods my sphere of observation that gravity will hold me securely to the earth.

I do not CHOOSE to be persuaded.

I have no choice BUT to be persuaded.

I can SAY, "NO!!! I refuse to believe in gravity!!!" But I would be lying. I have no choice BUT to believe in gravity.

Gravity, without checking at the gate of my volition, has CAUSED me to believe in itself.

 

[Alcott]

. Do you anchor yourself to the earth everyday in fears that gravity will give way and the centripetal force of earth's spinning will hurl you out into space?

No-- because centripetal force is acceleration toward the center of a rotating object.

But the Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through FAITH. These are two very different things.

Then is grace a choice? If it ain't-- which seems to me to be the case-- both salvation and condemnation are choiceless. Then every time a preacher or evangelist goes into one of those fervent pleas to "make a decision," it's really a farce.

 

[Herald]

Rick,

I understand the point you are trying to make but I think you carry it a bit too far. Faith is a choice because we believe freely. When the Holy Spirit regenerates the sinner the sinner believes freely (i.e. exercises faith freely). In the Calvinist system there is the element of choice, albeit not in the same way as the Arminian system. I think where you and I agree is that those whom the Holy Spirit regenerates are compelled by the overwhelming grace of God. Where once they were in darkness, now they are engulfed in glorious light. There is no other logical choice than to believe; but they do so willingly.

 

[Inspector Javert]

First, and perhaps most importantly:
Kudos for saying "centripetal force" :applause: :laugh:
(I'd like to be a fly on the wall anytime Quantum, for instance hears someone say "Centrifugal".) :BangHead:

But, to begin with, even if what you are saying is 100% true...(and I am not sure it is) we can't then jump to the conclusion that Calvinism presents a better soteriology because one can decidedly believe in something in precisely the same way as they do gravity, and still not be saved:

Act 26:27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.

Act 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

Thus, even if someone can "believe" that doesn't satisfy whichever condition which Agrippa did not satisfy which was necessary for him to truly come to repentance. Because presumably, he did indeed "believe".

 

[Luke2427]

No-- because centripetal force is acceleration toward the center of a rotating object.



Then is grace a choice? If it ain't-- which seems to me to be the case-- both salvation and condemnation are choiceless. Then every time a preacher or evangelist goes into one of those fervent pleas to "make a decision," it's really a farce.

I concur.

That's why I preach the Gospel instead of decisional regeneration.

 

[Luke2427]

First, and perhaps most importantly:
Kudos for saying "centripetal force" :applause: :laugh:
(I'd like to be a fly on the wall anytime Quantum, for instance hears someone say "Centrifugal".) :BangHead:

But, to begin with, even if what you are saying is 100% true...(and I am not sure it is) we can't then jump to the conclusion that Calvinism presents a better soteriology because one can decidedly believe in something in precisely the same way as they do gravity, and still not be saved:

Act 26:27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.

Act 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

Thus, even if someone can "believe" that doesn't satisfy whichever condition which Agrippa did not satisfy which was necessary for him to truly come to repentance. Because presumably, he did indeed "believe".

He was not persuaded.

He sent Paul away to KEEP from being persuaded against his will.

He knew, apparently, that if Paul continued to make his case, Paul would persuade him.

We are supposed to believe, as Christians, in salvation by grace through FAITH.

Faith is not a choice. Everything you have REAL faith in- you did not CHOOSE to have faith in it. It simply persuaded you to believe in it.

Now, we can say the words, "I choose to believe that Jesus is Lord," but they are just words if we have not been persuaded that it is so.

If we HAVE been persuaded that it is so, then we did not "choose" to believe- we were persuaded to believe.

 

[Luke2427]

Rick,

I understand the point you are trying to make but I think you carry it a bit too far. Faith is a choice because we believe freely. When the Holy Spirit regenerates the sinner the sinner believes freely (i.e. exercises faith freely).

No, Herald. You're wrong here.

I know Calvinists believe in choice. I am not disputing that. I am saying that NNE should believe that faith IS a choice.

Answer this question: When did you choose to believe in gravity?


You didn't.

You did not CHOOSE to believe in anything. You are convinced (i. e. convicted) that things are so.

You do not CHOOSE to believe them.

Can you choose to believe in winged Pegasus? No. You can SAY you believe in winged Pegasus. But you CANNOT believe in winged Pegasus until you HAVE BEEN (passive) persuaded that winged Pegasus is real.

Choice has nothing to do with what we believe.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

He was not persuaded.

He sent Paul away to KEEP from being persuaded against his will.

He knew, apparently, that if Paul continued to make his case, Paul would persuade him.

We are supposed to believe, as Christians, in salvation by grace through FAITH.

Faith is not a choice. Everything you have REAL faith in- you did not CHOOSE to have faith in it. It simply persuaded you to believe in it.

Now, we can say the words, "I choose to believe that Jesus is Lord," but they are just words if we have not been persuaded that it is so.

If we HAVE been persuaded that it is so, then we did not "choose" to believe- we were persuaded to believe.

Interesting....& that word "Persuaded" is throughout the bible.

 

[quantumfaith]

First, and perhaps most importantly:
Kudos for saying "centripetal force" :applause: :laugh:
(I'd like to be a fly on the wall anytime Quantum, for instance hears someone say "Centrifugal".) :BangHead:

But, to begin with, even if what you are saying is 100% true...(and I am not sure it is) we can't then jump to the conclusion that Calvinism presents a better soteriology because one can decidedly believe in something in precisely the same way as they do gravity, and still not be saved:

Act 26:27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.

Act 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

Thus, even if someone can "believe" that doesn't satisfy whichever condition which Agrippa did not satisfy which was necessary for him to truly come to repentance. Because presumably, he did indeed "believe".

Actually centripetal force is a "pseudo force" created by as Alcott stated I think "centripetal acceleration".

 

[webdog]

Premise of the op...faith is not a choice. This means not having faith (unbelief) also must not be a choice, meaning man is punished over something completely out of his control. That's justice :BangHead:

 

[kyredneck]

Premise of the op...faith is not a choice. This means not having faith (unbelief) also must not be a choice...

:thumbsup:

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. Ro 9:16

meaning man is punished over something completely out of his control.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Ro 9:19

That's justice :BangHead:

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9:20

 

[webdog]

:thumbsup:

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. Ro 9:16



Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Ro 9:19




Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9:20

Pretty original responses. Never heard those before...

When you get Romans 9 in context, we can talk then.

 

[kyredneck]

Paul pretty much nailed it, don'tcha think?

 

[Aaron]

Premise of the op...faith is not a choice. This means not having faith (unbelief) also must not be a choice, meaning man is punished over something completely out of his control. That's justice :BangHead:

Ever and anon, the noncalvinist cries, Why doth He yet find fault, for who hath resisted His will?

 

[webdog]

Ever and anon, the noncalvinist cries, Why doth He yet find fault, for who hath resisted His will?

Little late to the party.

We don't have a problem or find fault with God, we have a problem with you assigning guilt to God. 'Resisting His will' actually refutes the entire OP.

 

[Revmitchell]

Sure it does.

I am persuaded by the information that floods my sphere of observation that gravity will hold me securely to the earth.

I do not CHOOSE to be persuaded.

I have no choice BUT to be persuaded.

I can SAY, "NO!!! I refuse to believe in gravity!!!" But I would be lying. I have no choice BUT to believe in gravity.

Gravity, without checking at the gate of my volition, has CAUSED me to believe in itself.

Well most everyone else chooses to be persuaded.

 

[webdog]

Paul pretty much nailed it, don'tcha think?

I think he did, but based on how you rip it from context don't know how you can.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Actually centripetal force is a "pseudo force" created by as Alcott stated I think "centripetal acceleration".

GAAAHHHH!!! Go away smarty-head "hard-science" mathematico/physics types....GaaaaaH!