Faith is not a choice

[InTheLight]

The problem with you analysis is that the New Testament clearly and repeatedly affirms that saving "faith" is a GIFT from God

Like Iconoclast, I suppose if you keep on saying this it will morph into the truth inside your head.

and so NO MAN IS BORN WITH IT

No one is saying this. Non sequitur.

and gifts must be given and until they are given none have it.

Jesus:
"I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel." Luke 7:9

He marvelled, and said to them that followed, "Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."
Matthew 8:10

 

[Van]

Lets see:

God says He sets before us the CHOICE of life and death. But according to the absurdity of Calvinism, God did not really say what He said. What He meant to say is He sets the non-Choice of life only before the elect, and death only before the non-elect.

Anyone who advocates Calvinism must embrace absurdity. God predestines everything, but is not the author of sin. God does not really desire all men be saved, he was just kidding. On and on it goes, one thread after another pushing absurdity.

 

[The Biblicist]

Repeatedly?? PROVE IT. Prove that the Bible "REPEATEDLY" shows that faith is a gift.

Heb. 12:2; John 6:29; 64-65; Philp. 1:29; Eph. 2:8; Gal. 5:19; etc.

As usually, reading faith as a gift into Ephesias 2:8

No, it is YOU that is reading your idea into it. The grammar proves my point. The perfect tense demands a completed action at a prior point in time which continues completed. That completed action occcurred and was inclusive "through" faith.

Can you crawl "THROUGH" a pipe that does not exist? The two must coexist simeltaneously and are inseparable from each to make sense of that statement. "IT" is this whole action, as without faith no such action exists! "IT is a gift of God and NOT OF YOURSELVES" because the whole action is "BY GRACE"!!

Faith is "OF GRACE" (Rom. .4:16) and grace is a GIFT "FREELY by grace" (Rom. 3:24) and the only other option is works "if it be OF GRACE then it is no more OF WORKS otherwise grace is no more grace(Rom. 11:6).

If faith is a work (as you say by "it is the work of God according to John 6") and we are saved through faith, if faith is a work then that means we are SAVED THROUGH WORKS/FAITH.

God's works of redemption is called "grace" and grace is "not of works. Reread my response above.

John 6 says nothing that faith is a work. Jesus is responding in the context of which the crowd asked the question just as He did with the Rich Young Ruler when the young man said "Good Master, what GOOD THING must I do" and Jesus said "Why callest thou me good? There is one good that is God". Was Jesus saying He wasn't God?? No, he was answering the question according to the way it was asked which is common Jewish conversation.

Jesus answered the way he did in order to repudiate this man's view of man's MORAL nature being EQUAL to Christ's moral nature as his words demanded that he was morally EQUAL to Christ ("GOOD Master....what GOOD....can I do").

Thus Christ repudiate that view of man's moral nature by saying "THERE IS NONE GOOD but ONE and that is God."

He expressed YOUR VIEW of man's moral nature which makes man morally EQUAL to Christ. He didn't know who Christ was or what man is and Christ corrected both errors.


You know that Christ is God but like the young man you do not know what man is morally. Christ says THERE IS NONE but you and the young man both repudiate Christ's response and say you "CAN" do good.

He thought he was wise and so do you but:

"Professing themselves to be wise they became fools"[/QUOTE]

 

[Crabtownboy]

You do not CHOOSE to believe things. You are persuded by information that enters your sphere of observation to believe in things.

When you are persuaded, then you have made a choice from being persuaded.

 

[Luke2427]

Premise of the op...faith is not a choice. This means not having faith (unbelief) also must not be a choice, meaning man is punished over something completely out of his control. That's justice :BangHead:

The justice of it is another thread.

The fact of it is this thread.

 

[Luke2427]

Well most everyone else chooses to be persuaded.

So you CHOSE to believe in gravity?

When did you make that life changing "choice"?

When did you CHOOSE to believe your Mother loves you and that every meal she provided you would not be poisoned by her?

When did you choose to believe the earth was round?

When did you choose to believe fire can burn you?

You never made a choice to believe ANY of these things or any OTHER thing.

The facts came into your sphere of observation and completely without choice involved you were persuaded that they were so. The fact captured your mind and led it to believe the truth.

Saying, "Well, blah, blah, blah..." does not change that.

 

[Baptist Believer]

You do not CHOOSE to believe things. You are persuded by information that enters your sphere of observation to believe in things...

I see you did a cut-and-paste job from one of these threads to the other.

I responded to your argument in the other thread.

 

[Luke2427]

Bible disagrees with you.

When Jesus healed the Roman centurion's servant in Matthew 8 he said,

10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.

If faith is a grace gift from God, why is Jesus marveling at this centurion's faith? Why does he heal his servant because "he believed"?

Because so few Romans had been exposed to the facts of the Gospel and even fewer listened to those facts.

 

[Luke2427]

I believe he wasn't persuaded because he was not of my sheep.

Yes, but God uses means.

Faith is not some Holy Ghost fairy dust that God sprinkles on an unregenerate heart and, like magic, the heart lives.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Means.

The more Agrippa HEARD the word of God the closer he was to being persuaded.

 

[Luke2427]

I see you did a cut-and-paste job from one of these threads to the other.

I responded to your argument in the other thread.

Yes, that was originally a response to you in that thread and after I posted it, I thought it was worthy of its own thread.

 

[percho]

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Ro 3

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal 2

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:22

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phil 3:9

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:8

Could not have said it better kyredneck

The death of Jesus of Nazareth the Son of God and he, Jesus being raised from the dead by God the Father of him brought forth; The substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, Faith which resulted in the one raised being exalted on high, receiving from the Father who raised him the promise of the Holy Spirit, which could then be given to the called according to purpose.

That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through the faith. Gal 3:14

 

[percho]

Yes, but God uses means.

Faith is not some Holy Ghost fairy dust that God sprinkles on an unregenerate heart and, like magic, the heart lives.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Means.

The more Agrippa HEARD the word of God the closer he was to being persuaded.

Faith by hearing the Word of God. Allow me to give my understanding. BTW I removed comes.

V16 Who shall believe our report? The report of the word of God. The truth. Maybe those given the Spirit of truth.

What does the word of God say? V16 from Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Read 2-12 of Isaiah 53 to read of the faith to come.

Gal 3:23 speaks of before the faith came and verse 25 speaks of after the faith did come.

Why did Saul go from unbelief to being Paul the believer in a three day period?

Did Paul change his mind or did God given him a believing heart, opening his eyes and ears to truth? Was he persuaded or was he changed by the Spirit of Truth?

 

[Luke2427]

Faith by hearing the Word of God. Allow me to give my understanding. BTW I removed comes.

V16 Who shall believe our report? The report of the word of God. The truth. Maybe those given the Spirit of truth.

What does the word of God say? V16 from Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Read 2-12 of Isaiah 53 to read of the faith to come.

Gal 3:23 speaks of before the faith came and verse 25 speaks of after the faith did come.

Why did Saul go from unbelief to being Paul the believer in a three day period?

Did Paul change his mind or did God given him a believing heart, opening his eyes and ears to truth? Was he persuaded or was he changed by the Spirit of Truth?

The last question above is a false dichotomy.

It is not one or the other.

God gave him a believing heart BY changing his mind.

That's what "repent" means- to change one's mind.

 

[Iconoclast]

Inspector Javert

This verse reinforces PRECISELY what ITL said...."All men HAVE NOT faith".....

Actually no it does not.

your Calvinist spectacles are causing you to think that this says "All men ARE NOT GIVEN faith."

No man in the word of God is said to be saved.....because of faith:thumbsup: If they Had faith it would declare men become saved because of faith....but it does not say that.

It does not say it,because all men do not have it....

Repentance and faith, the very ability to turn from idols to God....is God given.

The fact that not all men are given faith,or the ability to believe stands in contrast to the believers.:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

ITL,


Icon said
Repentance and faith are grace gifts that are given at regeneration.

Yes, I suppose since the Bible does not say this, it is helpful to continually assert it. If you do so, it will seem as if it truly is in the Bible.

However the bible teaches this exact thing that you want to deny.....


17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ;
God in regeneration put Spirit baptism to their account,quickening them...notice "the Like gift" it was GIVEN BY GOD.....then he explains it further,like this-

Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
God granted it, God graced them with it, gave Gave them repentance unto LIFE.....IT is a package deal...it all comes at regeneration.....

what was I, that I could withstand God?

You anti-cals think you can withstand God unlike the Apostles who learned how God was at work in these gentiles.


18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

 

[MB]

You do not CHOOSE to believe things. You are persuded by information that enters your sphere of observation to believe in things

Actually you do choose to have faith because you choose to listen to that information. You are getting closer here Luke.

Take gravity for example. Do you anchor yourself to the earth everyday in fears that gravity will give way and the centripetal force of earth's spinning will hurl you out into space?
No.
You have put your faith in gravity and your life shows it.

When did you CHOOSE to put your faith in gravity?

Never.

When I found out what gravity was. Sorry I had to listen to my teachers or I would not have passed

You have no CHOICE BUT to believe in it. The information you have received CAUSES you to believe in it.

Only if I listen to the information and this requires choice.

Try as you may, you cannot now choose to STOP believing in it.

Oh I wouldn't be so bold as to say that. If something better than Gravity came along to convince me other wise.

Faith is not a choice. It is something that happens to us caused by information that enters our minds and persuades us.

Information has entered my mind about Calvinism but I do not believe it's true.

That's one of the many reasons Calvinism presents a much better soteriology than other theologies.

That's like trying to float a boat with out the hull.

It is consistent with the the invincible fact that faith is NOT a choice.

Nonsense I still do not believe in Calvinism.

The problem with non-cal soteriology is that it teaches that we are saved by grace through choice.

This is a lie.

But the Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through FAITH.

These are two very different things.

As far as lies and truth you are right they are different.
MB

 

[Revmitchell]

The problem with non-cal soteriology is that it teaches that we are saved by grace through choice.

Another example of Cals not knowing what non cals actually believe.

 

[preacher4truth]

Another example of Cals not knowing what non cals actually believe.

Actually he's spot on.

 

[percho]

The last question above is a false dichotomy.

It is not one or the other.

God gave him a believing heart BY changing his mind.

That's what "repent" means- to change one's mind.

I thought that is what I said. God gave him a believing heart. By being given the Spirit of truth Paul could rightly divide the word of truth.

 

[Winman]

Faith itself is not a choice, but we make a choice to believe.

Let's say you come to a frail looking wooden bridge over a swift river you desire to cross. You sincerely desire to cross the bridge, but it is certain if the bridge collapses you will be swept to your death in the raging river below.

There is an old man standing at the foot of the bridge. You ask the man if the bridge is safe. He assures you that the bridge is completely safe and that many persons much bigger and heavier than you have safely crossed many times, even just an hour ago.

The man seems very sincere and very convincing, yet the bridge appears very frail and not safe at all.

What do you do? You weigh the evidence, the bridge does not look safe, but the man seems very sincere and honest, and his argument was very compelling.

You decide to take a chance and cross the bridge. This is a decision, it is a decision to believe or trust the man and the bridge.

This is what it is like to trust Christ. Jesus has given his promise to us, that if we come to him he will absolutely and certainly save us. We are told to give up all other ways that we might be saved and depend upon him only.

Believing on Jesus is not simply believing some facts, it is committing one's self completely to him and depending on him completely to save you.

It is a choice that any man can make, just as any man could choose either to walk over the frail wooden bridge or not.