Faith is not a choice

[The Biblicist]

I am not saying that we cannot have assurance, we certainly can and should have assurance. Yet, no man will know for an absolute "certainty" until he is standing in heaven.

So you are making a distinction between "assurance" and "certainity"! Tell me, if a person has "assurance' they are saved but have no "certainty" in their heart they are saved how can they say "I KNOW" if the basis for knowledge is not certain?

Faith is the evidence of "things not seen". You cannot have absolute certainty of something not seen.

What you are failing to emphasize is the word "evidence"! There is present "evidence"

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

You don't hope or have faith for things you can hold in your hand and see, things you can hold and see you have certainty of. Faith is waiting and believing what you cannot see.

You are confusing the word "faith" with "hope" as they are not the same. Hope demands that the final fulfillment has not yet come but faith demands it will come. Faith is not a "hope so" but a "KNOW" so and your kind of faith cannot possible say "I KNOW" but at the very best can only say "I HOPE".

 

[The Biblicist]

So you are making a distinction between "assurance" and "certainity"! Tell me, if a person has "assurance' they are saved but have no "certainty" in their heart they are saved how can they say "I KNOW" if the basis for knowledge is not certain?



What you are failing to emphasize is the word "evidence"! There is present "evidence"



You are confusing the word "faith" with "hope" as they are not the same. Hope demands that the final fulfillment has not yet come but faith demands it will come. Faith is not a "hope so" but a "KNOW" so and your kind of faith cannot possible say "I KNOW" but at the very best can only say "I HOPE".

Again, justifying faith is "by grace" and anything "by grace" originates with God in regard to salvation and is given "freely" (Rom. 3:24; 4:4; 4:16).

The fact that "faith" is "by grace" repudiates that faith originates with men or is something worked up or worked out by men - Period - end of story.

 

[Winman]

Saving faith in scripture is a direct result of IMMEDIATE and DIVINE revelation IN THE HEART of true believers so that there is no doubts whatsoever,

No doubts whatsoever?? Good luck with that, some of your greatest Calvinists like R.C. Sproul and John Piper have readily admitted they struggle with assurance.

Here is an article by John Piper about this very subject;

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource...onizing-problem-of-the-assurance-of-salvation

It is not surprising to me that you are so smug and self assured, that comes across in nearly every post of yours. The scriptures warn us to fear.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

You better be careful.

 

[Rippon]

I am not saying that we cannot have assurance, we certainly can and should have assurance. Yet, no man will know for an absolute "certainty" until he is standing in heaven.

Faith is the evidence of "things not seen". You cannot have absolute certainty of something not seen.


You don't hope or have faith for things you can hold in your hand and see, things you can hold and see you have certainty of. Faith is waiting and believing what you cannot see.

You are going against Holy Writ AGAIN. Your understanding of faith and assurance is lacking.

See Hebrews 11:1 :

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see. (NET Bible)

Now faith is the realization of what is hoped for, the proof of things not seen. (LEB)

 

[The Biblicist]

You just can't write too long before delving into personal attacks can you? Let's keep this above a person level.

You cannot deal with Romans 4:16 which is in a DOCTRINAL section of scripture that demands that "faith" is "by grace" rather than a work of man or a product of natural birth. Grace is not something that can be worked up or worked out (Rom. 11:6). Faith is a fruit "of the Spirit" not of man (Gal. 5:19). These are precept type passages that directly deal with the origin of faith.

Your selective passages call for INFERENCES rather than any doctrinal assertions. Your INFERENCES violate clear unambigious precepts that repudiate your inferences.

You can't deal with them directly so you reduce the conversation to a personal attack.

Uninspired men are not the basis for Biblical doctrine or do you realize that? However, that is where you must flee to support an unbiblical assertion.

Deal with the fact that Paul says faith is "BY GRACE" - Rom. 4:16

 

[Winman]

You are going against Holy Writ AGAIN. Your understanding of faith and assurance is lacking.

See Hebrews 11:1 :

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see. (NET Bible)

Now faith is the realization of what is hoped for, the proof of things not seen. (LEB)

You Calvinists are a riot, you think you are better than the greatest men in the Bible. Abraham doubted God when he went in to Hagar, or when he lied to Pharaoh. Moses doubted when he struck the rock instead of speaking to it. Peter doubted when he saw the wind and waves and began to sink, Thomas doubted and would not believe Jesus rose as he promised until he saw him with his own eyes.

You better be careful, there is a such thing as over confidence.

Pro 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

 

[Rippon]

You Calvinists are a riot...

You better be careful, there is a such thing as over confidence.

Pro 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

I submit Scripture that counters your weak view of faith and assurance and this is what you come up with?

 

[The Biblicist]

You Calvinists are a riot, you think you are better than the greatest men in the Bible.

Whenever a poster must reduce themselves to the level of personal attack that is simply admission they can't deal with the evidence and must resort to personal attacks to vindicate themselves.

Abraham doubted God when he went in to Hagar, or when he lied to Pharaoh. Moses doubted when he struck the rock instead of speaking to it. Peter doubted when he saw the wind and waves and began to sink, Thomas doubted and would not believe Jesus rose as he promised until he saw him with his own eyes.

All your illustrations have one thing in common! NONE of them refer to the point of initial faith and initial salvation.

Deal with the Biblical evidence instead of lower this debate to personal attacks. Romans 4:16 denies your whole theory based upon inference.

 

[Winman]

You just can't write too long before delving into personal attacks can you? Let's keep this above a person level.

Hey, you are the one who implied you never doubt. You are just BEGGING to be cut down to size.

You cannot deal with Romans 4:16 which is in a DOCTRINAL section of scripture that demands that "faith" is "by grace" rather than a work of man or a product of natural birth. Grace is not something that can be worked up or worked out (Rom. 11:6). Faith is a fruit "of the Spirit" not of man (Gal. 5:19). These are precept type passages that directly deal with the origin of faith.

Again, you teach the exact opposite of scripture. We do not receive faith by grace, we have access into God's grace BY FAITH.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

God's grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men (Tit 2:11), but only those who believe have access INTO this grace .

Your selective passages call for INFERENCES rather than any doctrinal assertions. Your INFERENCES violate clear unambigious precepts that repudiate your inferences.

Blah, blah, blah... You are so FULL of yourself. Now you are trying to sound sophisticated. Not buying it.

You can't deal with them directly so you reduce the conversation to a personal attack.

You are the one with a superior attitude that implied you never doubt. Good luck when you stand before God, I seriously doubt you will be so bold.

Uninspired men are not the basis for Biblical doctrine or do you realize that? However, that is where you must flee to support an unbiblical assertion.

Deal with the fact that Paul says faith is "BY GRACE" - Rom. 4:16

That is the exact OPPOSITE of what Romans 4:16 says;

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Paul is saying that salvation is by faith THAT IT MIGHT BE BY GRACE.

Paul is contrasting works versus faith. If we are saved by works, then we are not saved by grace, because grace is not merited. If we worked for salvation, then salvation would be merited and could not be said to be of grace.

No, we must be saved by faith in order for salvation to be of grace. Faith is not merit, it is simply receiving the free gift. When we receive the free gift of salvation, this makes salvation to be of God's grace and not because we merited it.

Man, you Calvinists are so messed up, you understand scripture in the EXACT REVERSE of what it really says, and this is a perfect example of this.

 

[Rippon]

You are just BEGGING to be cut down to size.



Blah, blah, blah... You are so FULL of yourself. Now you are trying to sound sophisticated.


Good luck when you stand before God, I seriously doubt you will be so bold.


Man, you Calvinists are so messed up

Winman,do ever listen to yourself? In this case do you actually read what you post? You ought to be ashamed of yourself --but I doubt that you have the ability to blush.

 

[TisMe]

Whenever I can't deal with the evidence, I must resort to personal attacks to vindicate myself

Personal attack removed

 

[percho]

So far no one has refuted this, so I'm posting it again.

Jesus:
"I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel." Luke 7:9

He marvelled, and said to them that followed, "Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."
Matthew 8:10

Bible says that Jesus FOUND FAITH in these people. He marveled at the faith he found in the centurion. If Jesus gave the centurion his faith, why would he marvel at something he gave to him as a gift?

Not as you will accept this as an answer.

YLT Mark 11:22 And Jesus answering saith to them, `Have faith of God;

 

[Winman]

Winman,do ever listen to yourself? In this case do you actually read what you post? You ought to be ashamed of yourself --but I doubt that you have the ability to blush.

Hey, this is serious business, we are talking about people's souls and eternity. I do not play around with folks who are teaching error.

If folks want to believe this Calvinism junk that teaches the EXACT REVERSE of what the scriptures are really saying, that is their business, but there happen to be many folks who read here and never post. These folks might be new Christians and new to the scriptures and easily misled. Therefore I will continue to fight against this terribly false man-made doctrine called Calvinism.

This is not a game to me.

 

[InTheLight]

Not as you will accept this as an answer.

YLT Mark 11:22 And Jesus answering saith to them, `Have faith of God;

It does not address my question in any way, so no.

 

[preacher4truth]

Bringing in evidence from other forums, posts outside of BB is against the rules...

You imply he is not a real Christian. To the rest of the above...wow...

This has to be one of the most denigrating posts I've seen in a while on the BB.

 

[percho]

It does not address my question in any way, so no.

Could the faith Jesus found in them he had not found in Israel have been the faith of God, based upon that translation of that scripture?

 

[Iconoclast]

InTheLight

If Jesus gave the centurion his faith, why would he marvel at something he gave to him as a gift?

Maybe for the same reason He marvelled at their unbelief;

Mark 6:6
And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

We are told:
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

And yet "He marvelled" at their unbelief.:thumbs:

 

[The Biblicist]

That is the exact OPPOSITE of what Romans 4:16 says;

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Look at the text again! The promise is "of faith" but if faith were "of works" or "of man" as you demand, he could not go on to say it is "by grace" because grace does not originate with man or of man's works. It is "of faith" because faith originates with God's grace and that is why it is "by grace" that the promise is obtained.

So it is saying the very exact opposite of what you are saying. Furthermore, because it is "OF FAITH" it is "SURE" = CERTAIN to all the seed. This also contradicts your definition of faith since your kind faith has NO CERTAINTY so anything that is "OF" your kind of "FAITH" cannot be "sure"!

 

[The Biblicist]

InTheLight


Maybe for the same reason He marvelled at their unbelief;

Mark 6:6
And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

We are told:
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

And yet "He marvelled" at their unbelief.:thumbs:

Great response!:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[webdog]

No, Jesus Christ is the object of our faith.

See Heb. 12:2a :"fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfector of faith..." (NIV)

That doesn't contradict what I said.