Yes.....He speaks of faith as mere human trust, but not as a God given gift.
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Faith is not a choice
- Thread starter Luke2427
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Yes.....He speaks of faith as mere human trust, but not as a God given gift.
Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God.
How many times did you hear the gospel before you got saved?
God doesn't "cooperate" with man, or "work with" as you put it.
That would be "cooperation evangelism" or theology, the idea that man can cooperate with God in his own salvation. That is a heresy and it is works salvation. I thought you believed that salvation is all of God. If it is, then it must be accepted as a gift by faith; not God's faith but one's own faith. Jesus paid it all. All to him I owe. Sin has left a crimson stain. He washed it white as snow.
Moses may have made excuses. But he eventually believed. The same is true with any person who comes to Christ. They make excuses. But they know the truth of the message. Eventually they believe it. They put their faith in that message. They are persuaded that it is only Christ that can save them.
psalms109:31
Active Member
The wages of my sin is death that is my cost.There is no amount of work that can pay my debt. God word also teaches me this.
Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.
Romans 4:5
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
I am saved by grace through faith and nothing I have or can do can pay my debt so I must trust in the finish work of Christ this is what my faith that came from the word of God teaches me.
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Alive in Christ
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This post is ......a cry for help.....AIC wants to participate in the discussions,but has not equipped himself for the task. So he posts once in awhile....showing he was "deep in thought"......posting about munchkins,and fairytales....lol....VERY DEEP.
AIC.....hope you did not hurt yourself thinking this post through![/QUOTE]
Thank you for sharing, Icon....
I definetly should be more "classy" and dignified with my posting.
Like YOU AND LUKE do!!
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I agree.....
Because its not. The object of our faith is the God given gift.
So far no one has refuted this, so I'm posting it again.
Jesus:
"I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel." Luke 7:9
He marvelled, and said to them that followed, "Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."
Matthew 8:10
Bible says that Jesus FOUND FAITH in these people. He marveled at the faith he found in the centurion. If Jesus gave the centurion his faith, why would he marvel at something he gave to him as a gift?
Jesus:
"I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel." Luke 7:9
He marvelled, and said to them that followed, "Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."
Matthew 8:10
Bible says that Jesus FOUND FAITH in these people. He marveled at the faith he found in the centurion. If Jesus gave the centurion his faith, why would he marvel at something he gave to him as a gift?
The term "faith" is used several ways in the New Testament and it does not always refer to saving faith. This is especially true whenever such adjectivesl as "little" "great" "weak" "so great" are attached to it. Jesus many times upbraided his own disciples for lack of Faith or weak faith. It is not the STRENGHTH of faith that saves anyone but the OBJECT of faith.
The term "faith" is used several ways in the New Testament and it does not always refer to saving faith. This is especially true whenever such adjectivesl as "little" "great" "weak" "so great" are attached to it. Jesus many times upbraided his own disciples for lack of Faith or weak faith. It is not the STRENGHTH of faith that saves anyone but the OBJECT of faith.
In a new thread on faith being a work of God I think I have provided irrefutable evidence that saving faith is the work of God. On another new thread on John 6:45 I provide indisputable evidence that faith is the product of direct revelation from God. Check it out.
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Yes, I know all of this. The fact is in the example I am using, the centurion believed the Jesus was the Son of God, and as such could heal his servant. Look at the sentence below and address it please:
If Jesus gave the centurion his faith, why would he marvel at something he gave to him as a gift?
No, Jesus Christ is the object of our faith.
See Heb. 12:2a :"fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfector of faith..." (NIV)
That's great. You are a prodigious poster. I'm sure that your irrefutable proof is so airtight that no one dare post a dissenting voice in these threads. Yay!
Now, the question I am asking is not about saving faith being the work of God or faith being the product of direct revelation from God, but whether or not faith is a gift (it's not).
The fact is in the story about the Roman centurion and his servant, Jesus FOUND faith in him, and it was saving faith (unless it is possible that you can believe Jesus is the Son of God, trust him to perform miracles, and not be saved), and Jesus MARVELED at this faith.
If I give a gift to someone I don't marvel at what a great and wonderful gift it was, so if faith is not a gift, why did Jesus react in this way?
great
You are correct, if God gave the centurion his faith, it would be completely nonsensical for Jesus to marvel at it.
And this is not the only time Jesus marvelled, he also marvelled at unbelief.
Mar 6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
If a man can only have faith if God gives it to him, then it is also nonsensical that Jesus would marvel at his fellow countrymen's unbelief. This scripture shows Jesus fully expected these persons to believe, completely refuting Total Inability.
The scriptures are FULL of verses that easily refute the Reformed/Calvinist doctrine of Total Inability. God has given all men the ability to believe and therefore they are responsible to believe God.
You have to ignore or twist much scripture to be a Calvinist.
You are correct, if God gave the centurion his faith, it would be completely nonsensical for Jesus to marvel at it.
And this is not the only time Jesus marvelled, he also marvelled at unbelief.
Mar 6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
If a man can only have faith if God gives it to him, then it is also nonsensical that Jesus would marvel at his fellow countrymen's unbelief. This scripture shows Jesus fully expected these persons to believe, completely refuting Total Inability.
The scriptures are FULL of verses that easily refute the Reformed/Calvinist doctrine of Total Inability. God has given all men the ability to believe and therefore they are responsible to believe God.
You have to ignore or twist much scripture to be a Calvinist.
The Scripture clearly teach there are but two and only two sources from which all things that characterize human beings originate from:
1. The works of the flesh
2. The fruit of the Spirit
Faith is not listed among the fruits of the flesh:
Gal. 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:
The only kind of faith produced by the flesh is the leap in the dark kind of faith but that is not Biblical faith that pleases God.
Faith is listed among the fruit of the Spirit:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
There is no THIRD option provided in Scripture.
The Son of God imposed self-limitations upon His human nature while on earth. Christ grew in wisdom and knowledge and thus could be "amazed" at things but not so with Divine omniscience.
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So, not addressing my question. Why am I not surprised? Never mind. Sorry to bother you. Killfile.
Is salvation "by grace" a gifts of God (Eph. 2:8) and does grace originate from men or from God? Is grace something earned (Rom. 4:4) or "freely" given? If salvaiton "by grace" is a gift of God then faith is a gift of God as it is "by grace" - Rom. 4;16.
Does faith originate with men or with God (heb. 12:2). If it originates with God then it must be given to men! If it is given "by grace" then it is a gift of God.
Does faith originate as the work of God (J. 6:29) and thus a "fruit of the Spirit" of God (Gal. 5:19)? If so, then it must be imparted from the Spirit to man and if it is imparted "by grace" then it is a gift of God (Rom. 4:16).
If so, then faith is also a gift of God because faith "IS OF GRACE" - Rom. 4:16
Do all men have faith (2 Thes. 3:3)? If not then faith does not come by human birth and must come from some other soruce than from man.
Secular faith is not a leap in the dark, no intelligent person would simply leap out of an airplane with a parachute, people train to do this, they study, they learn how parachutes work, they study to properly fold their chute, etc... It is anything but a leap in the dark.
Trusting God is taking a chance, no man has seen God at any time, and none of us has seen Jesus. We are risking and trusting that God's word is true. We have the evidence of scriptures, we have some historical and archaeological evidence that supports the sciptures, but in the end we must simply trust God's word and trust Jesus to save us.
Faith is not absolute certainty, you will not have absolute certainty until you arrive in heaven. Until then you trust in God.
And I would say that anyone who says they have absolute certainty at all times and says they never doubt is a complete liar. Even John the Baptist doubted, and Jesus said he was the greatest man born of woman.
If faith is absolute certainty, then you don't have it.
I did not see your post until after writing the post you refer to. However, that post sufficiently repudiates your idea thoroughly as there is no third option from whence Biblcial faith that pleases God can originate from but God.
Are you then saying that the centurian and the gentile woman were people properly trained in theology and after much study of the scriptures concerning the nature of God and salvation they then placed faith in Christ???? Or was their faith a leap in the dark?????
According to your definition of faith there can be NO CERTAINTY of salvation in this life. No Christians can absolutely say "I KNOW whom I have believed and am PERSUADED..." or "I write these things unto you that beleive.....that ye might KNOW" or "I KNOW my redeemer...."
The kind of faith you have described and defined is UNBIBLICAL and saves N
NE because it has absolutely no relationship to saving faith in Scripture. Saving faith in scripture is a direct result of IMMEDIATE and DIVINE revelation IN THE HEART of true believers so that there is no doubts whatsoever, so a true believer can say 'I KNOW" Jesus Christ as "THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE that they might KNOW thee..." Your kind of faith provides no such certainty.I highly doubt either were trained in theology. Some of your greatest skeptics are highly educated people, while great faith usually belongs to "simple folk".
It is certain both the Gentile woman and centurion had heard of the fame of Jesus, perhaps they had seen the great crowds that followed him, perhaps they had even witnessed miracles he had performed. Obviously they had some knowledge of the Jewish religion and at least knew of the promised Christ.
Faith in Jesus was that he was loving and merciful and would help them if they applied to him. Both the Gentile woman and centurion seemed to know that Jesus came to the lost sheep of Israel only, but both believed he would also show mercy to Gentiles. This is faith.
According to your definition of faith there can be NO CERTAINTY of salvation in this life. No Christians can absolutely say "I KNOW whom I have believed and am PERSUADED..." or "I write these things unto you that beleive.....that ye might KNOW" or "I KNOW my redeemer...."
The kind of faith you have described and defined is UNBIBLICAL and saves N
I am not saying that we cannot have assurance, we certainly can and should have assurance. Yet, no man will know for an absolute "certainty" until he is standing in heaven.
Faith is the evidence of "things not seen". You cannot have absolute certainty of something not seen.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
You don't hope or have faith for things you can hold in your hand and see, things you can hold and see you have certainty of. Faith is waiting and believing what you cannot see.
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