Faith is not a work

[Frogman]

Yep...sounds like a wounded coyote, don't it?

Now, that is an example of trying to dodge and broaden the scope of the discussion. The answer I provided is sufficient, but alas, it is founded upon Scripture so you must dispose of it as soon as possible.

The 'faith' of the devil and his demons is not a saving faith, it is this saving faith that is given to the elect by God, and this for His name's sake, his mercies sake, his righteousness sake...but again, all this is from Scripture and I can't prove it intellectually so you will just tell me I am dodging and broadening, looks after I get broad enough it would be difficult for me to dodge...don't it?

Yeah, Scripture teaches God provides saving faith. Learn this and you will not be so offended by the 'praise of the glory of His grace.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Frogman says, "The 'faith' of the devil and his demons is not a saving faith,..."

Then,
Why do Calvinists use it to refute the Arminian position on Faith?

Why do the Calvinists use that scripture to support their position on faith?

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Frogman:
See what hardening gets you Nick?? Now we will have to excommunicate you, and in keeping with our fearless leader, {heil} Calvin, if you ever come to Glasgow, KY (at least before I go to Alaska), I will have to burn you at the stake.

Can we just burn the steak instead? I'm partial to porterhouse.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Frogman says, "The 'faith' of the devil and his demons is not a saving faith,..."

Then,
Why do Calvinists use it to refute the Arminian position on Faith?

Why do the Calvinists use that scripture to support their position on faith?

Yelsew,

You forget I do not rely on what Calvin or Calvinists argue, I read scripture and believe what I beleive because that is what Scripture teaches. It has nothing to do with what Calvinists or Calvin teaches. Contrary to the belief of Arminians we called Calvinists do not drool over the pages of the Christian Institutes. Much of Calvin's doctrine especially concerning the church and baptism puts me at odds with him.

Discontinue the fallacy that the tie that binds is an umbilical cord to Calvin, it is a tie that binds by love to the Cross of Christ.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Frogman:
See what hardening gets you Nick?? Now we will have to excommunicate you, and in keeping with our fearless leader, {heil} Calvin, if you ever come to Glasgow, KY (at least before I go to Alaska), I will have to burn you at the stake.

Can we just burn the steak instead? I'm partial to porterhouse. </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah, I'd rather have the steak too, wouldn't have any use for a burnt Npetreley.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

It seems that Calvinists, perhaps from the time of Calvin's era, have been suspicious about 'work' having an aspect in salvation. We all believe salvation is by grace alone, through faith, but after the reception of Christ, we are told to ' . . . work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.' [Philippians 2:12] Dr. James Strong suggests that the word 'work' [katergaesthey] can mean 'to work fully, accomplish, to finish, to fashion, cause, do a deed, perform or work.' The word, 'work' is in the present middle imperative tense. This word suggests an action in present time.

One would guess that God desires us to keep working out our own salvation in the Presence of the One Who is all-powerful and the One who demands our reverence as the people of God.

Again, salvation is from Jesus and through His grace alone. Faith is our human response to His offer in the Gospel and is the conduit by which grace comes to us, and is not contributory to our final salvation in Heaven. Grace and the imputed righteousness of Christ are given to us by God Himself; and, working out our salvation with fear and trembling is not a work in the sense of stocking merit or an advantage in securing our eternal hope, or insuring our place in Heaven. Faith in Jesus secured this when a sinner first believes in Christ and His atonement. [I Peter 1:5]

 

[Frogman]

We all believe salvation is by grace alone, through faith, but after the reception of Christ, we are told to ' . . . work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.' [Philippians 2:12]

This brother is discussing that we perform that which is spoken of in James to manifest the salvation that God has worked in us. We are unable to 'work out' this, our own salvation in any way until God has placed it within us.

To agree with Dr. Strong negates your last paragraph. If it is suggested that we complete our salvation in this way, we must also, at least, I must, reject this thought, for Christ is the author and finisher of my faith.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

I too, believe that God is the Author and Finisher of my faith.

Persevering in faith and beautifying our inner faith and life are not in the column called, "Works." [James 2:22]

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Frogman says, "The 'faith' of the devil and his demons is not a saving faith,..."

Then,
Why do Calvinists use it to refute the Arminian position on Faith?

Why do the Calvinists use that scripture to support their position on faith?

Yelsew,

You forget I do not rely on what Calvin or Calvinists argue, I read scripture and believe what I beleive because that is what Scripture teaches. It has nothing to do with what Calvinists or Calvin teaches. Contrary to the belief of Arminians we called Calvinists do not drool over the pages of the Christian Institutes. Much of Calvin's doctrine especially concerning the church and baptism puts me at odds with him.

Discontinue the fallacy that the tie that binds is an umbilical cord to Calvin, it is a tie that binds by love to the Cross of Christ.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]Well oddly enough no Calvinist has jumped in to refute, or answer the questions....hmmmmmmm!

 

[romanbear]

Hi Frogman;

You do believe the Bible don't you. Phil 2:12 Paul tells us to work out our own salvation. Yet you disreguard it. It seems that most Calvinist just hate the idea of works. Why? What about faith without works is dead.Do you suppose that if you don't have works with your faith. Your faith is dead and can't get you to heaven?.
Romanbear

 

[Ray Berrian]

Frogman,

You are right. God can only place grace in our lives when we believe in Him. Then we 'work out our faith with fear and trembling.' Our main point here is that work is not considered by God as contributory toward our personal salvation. Believing in Jesus secures salvation through grace. [I Peter 1:4-5]

The Apostle Peter goes on to remind Calvinists that faith is not God's but the repentant sinner's belief. [I Peter 1:9] 'Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.'

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Frogman,

You are right. God can only place grace in our lives when we believe in Him. Then we 'work out our faith with fear and trembling.' Our main point here is that work is not considered by God as contributory toward our personal salvation. Believing in Jesus secures salvation through grace. [I Peter 1:4-5]

The Apostle Peter goes on to remind Calvinists that faith is not God's but the repentant sinner's belief. [I Peter 1:9] 'Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.'

Sorry Ray, but God has already given man all the grace man needs through the attribute of grace in each man. God's personal attribute of grace is a unilateral application that encompasses, but is "not transferred to" all mankind.

While God's grace is dominant, mankind hears, many believe the word, (are saved) and their spirits are regenerated. Then the regenerated spirit produces the fruits of the spirit that result in doing the good works that salvation produces, "the working out of our own salvation". Salvation comes first, then the "salvation works" can have merit with God.

You are Quite Right that works do not bring salvation, and we agree that faith that produces no good works is dead faith. Dead faith is faith that is not exercised.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by romanbear:
Hi Frogman;

You do believe the Bible don't you. Phil 2:12 Paul tells us to work out our own salvation. Yet you disreguard it. It seems that most Calvinist just hate the idea of works. Why? What about faith without works is dead.Do you suppose that if you don't have works with your faith. Your faith is dead and can't get you to heaven?.
Romanbear

Philippians 2.12:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

This is the 'works' proof of the indwelling Holy Spirit in the saint, the child of God. It is not for the benefit of the child, but of the church and of the world that those who are the children of God are made manifest by their works.

Further you brethren are wont to disregard the next scripture:

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." vs. 13

this taken with vss. 14 & 15 serve again to strengthen the position I take at vs. 12.

vs. 16 then is the consolation of Paul in the day of Christ that his work is not in vain, it is not that those who are believers are not believers because Paul does not witness their 'good works' they remain the same, yet his conscience is comforted as he looks forward to his standing before Christ that his work was not vain, that God blessed his work is not the concern of Paul, that he did not fail to teach works as a result of their position in Christ is what he is seeking to establish in the believers.

I do not deny the need of the 'fruits of the Spirit' I only deny the ability of the natural depraved unregenerate man to produce these. This is impossible, even as scripture would ask 'can a leopard change his stripes' yet you disregard these things and attempt to say I and other calvinists deny the need for good works.

Your system, everywhere denies a foundation on works, yet everywhere declares works to be its foundation.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Frogman,

You are right. God can only place grace in our lives when we believe in Him. Then we 'work out our faith with fear and trembling.' Our main point here is that work is not considered by God as contributory toward our personal salvation. Believing in Jesus secures salvation through grace. [I Peter 1:4-5]

The Apostle Peter goes on to remind Calvinists that faith is not God's but the repentant sinner's belief. [I Peter 1:9] 'Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.'

Sorry Ray, but God has already given man all the grace man needs through the attribute of grace in each man. God's personal attribute of grace is a unilateral application that encompasses, but is "not transferred to" all mankind.

While God's grace is dominant, mankind hears, many believe the word, (are saved) and their spirits are regenerated. Then the regenerated spirit produces the fruits of the spirit that result in doing the good works that salvation produces, "the working out of our own salvation". Salvation comes first, then the "salvation works" can have merit with God.

You are Quite Right that works do not bring salvation, and we agree that faith that produces no good works is dead faith. Dead faith is faith that is not exercised. </font>[/QUOTE]Faith is said to make the person believing to have passed from death to life. This is not showing that this faith is dead without works. this is speaking of the heart circumcision performed by God and it may well be that a believer is in a situation where these works are not able to be displayed, your system makes his deliverance dependent upon these works and not the Grace of God, though you spend a great amount of energy to establish your error in the Grace of God. I believe you confuse the Grace of God with the Baptism of the Spirit onto the church the body of Christ.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

The Apostle Peter goes on to remind Calvinists that faith is not God's but the repentant sinner's belief. [I Peter 1:9] 'Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.'

Contextual consideration will show that Peter is speaking of adding to the faith the individual possesses. This is the faith which saves,which is from God, the 'adding' then is left to the individual through the study of Scripture and following the leadership of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Faith is said to make the person believing to have passed from death to life. This is not showing that this faith is dead without works..

Yes, faith does cause one to pass from death unto life, however, if that faith produces no good works, what good is it? What good is it to believe in something or someone if you do not "work" in support of that thing or person? What good does it do if you believe in something and keep silent about it?

this is speaking of the heart circumcision performed by God and it may well be that a believer is in a situation where these works are not able to be displayed, your system makes his deliverance dependent upon these works and not the Grace of God, though you spend a great amount of energy to establish your error in the Grace of God. I believe you confuse the Grace of God with the Baptism of the Spirit onto the church the body of Christ

It is not "my system", but rather the biblical system. There is nothing in what scripture established that says "WORKS ARE REQUIRED FOR SALVATION", to the contrary, scripture declares plainly that one cannot work their way to salvation. What scriptures say is that works done by the unsaved cannot save them. Works done by the saved demonstrate their faith. Everyone's 'works', unsaved and saved, will be tested as if by fire. Those works done for the glory of God will pass through the fire as if gold, silver, and precious stones, that is, they survive fire. All other works will be burned up as if wood, hay, and stubble, leaving nothing but ash.

You are the one whose theology is in error.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The Apostle Peter goes on to remind Calvinists that faith is not God's but the repentant sinner's belief. [I Peter 1:9] 'Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.'

Contextual consideration will show that Peter is speaking of adding to the faith the individual possesses. This is the faith which saves,which is from God, the 'adding' then is left to the individual through the study of Scripture and following the leadership of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]NO, believing in Jesus, the Son of God, The Messiah, is saving faith...basic faith.

Faith, like knowledge can be increased. The more you know of God the greater your faith becomes.

One can have a basic knowledge of a car, but the more one learns of the car, the greater one's knowledge of the car becomes. Knowing how to operate a car is not sufficient to driving your care in the Daytona 500.

Knowing how to recognise that your car does not start when it is supposed to does not make you a mechanic.

Believing in Jesus is sufficient unto salvation, but it is not sufficient to being a biblical scholar.

 

[Frogman]

Still, at the very least your beliefs require a manifestation of these 'works' or else the inward work of God is of none effect. Mine does not do this, because scripture does not do this.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Still, at the very least your beliefs require a manifestation of these 'works' or else the inward work of God is of none effect. Mine does not do this, because scripture does not do this.

Bro. Dallas

NO, you misunderstand what I said! Works, whether by unsaved or saved, have no bearing on one's salvation. Works done by the saved, simply provide evidence of one's salvation, and provide Jesus with something for which he can say "well done, my good and faithful servant".

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

I think that you believe that I am an Arminian as to the fifth point of Calvinism. I believe in the eternal security of the believer and if you believe in 'Perseverence of the Saints' I have a much better understanding of the grace of God than most people on this board. You may not understand my post, but I didn't confuse any issue. I am not sure of your position on the fifth point of Calvinism?