Faith "not of yourselves" Eph 2:8

[BobRyan]

All of the ones mentioned above DID BELIEVE, but THEY DID NOT CARE. Simple.

Originally posted by steaver:

I guess Adam did not care then if he died when he ate. I don't know what he had to gain if he believed he would be dead after he ate!

God Bless!

In your effort to avoid the point made you are derailing your own argument and simply going in circles.

The point remains that both the SAVED TODAY and the PERFECT SINLESS examples of the past all BELIEVE that they are JUST FINE as they are!! What they ALL DOUBT is the consequence of falling.

They all seem to think that they can go into error and "Still be ok". (Sounds a bit like OSAS don't it?!)

You simply spin the point to some unclaimed ground about "they all believed they would die and chose death". But in your OWN POINT of BELIEF you stated that the BELIEF was in the LIFE given - not BELIEF in the consequence of falling! In other words you MADE the case for this point in your OWN argument!

Steaver said -
This is why I cannot understand those who say you must "keep on believing". How can I not? Jesus Christ is always in me.

Isn't Christian faith based on knowledge of fact? God given facts upon the heart? This is why I don't understand how one could begin with God's knowledge, accept it through re-birth, and then say "oh I don't believe that anymore".

There you clearly show that "what is known" is NOT the risk and consequence of falling - it is the fact of being saved! That you are "ok". The SAME fact all the sinless people and angels in the example share in common!

Now you are simply trying to cover the point up so that we all get to go back and reherse it again as we uncover what has already been said by you and by others!

Why do that??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

In your effort to avoid the point made you are derailing your own argument and simply going in circles.

That is a good one brother

I spend countless hours of my time just trying to keep you guys on point! You are very good at running me in circles but it sharpens my knowledge to stay engaged. I stay engaged when most would just quit and let misunderstanding of scripture prevail. I will continue to fight the good fight as Paul and Timothy did as my example.

As for all the other stuff you posted, just another rabbit trail in an attempt to divert MY POINT!

God Bless brother! I enjoy your company!

 

[BobRyan]

I am very glad you will continue to keep on "keeping on" -- but "again" you did not address the point. So the point remains.

"here it is again"

The list given all have in common the same thing that you "claimed" to know as fact which is that ALL those in the list ALSO knew they were "ok" as fact!

This simply can not be denied in the case of the unfallen sinless angels, Adam, Eve etc.

YET they STILL chose sin "thinking" that they would still be "ok".

Sounds like OSAS -

Your own "claim" was that knowing they are OK - they would never engage in risky choices that would cause the loss of what they had. My point has been that they (like the OSAS people) did not consider the true nature of the risk when they took it. Though God stated it clearly!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by Faith alone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tazman:
What does Jesus required in order to accept this gift?

Ephesians 2:8, 9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this [salvation] is not you own doing; it is a gift of God, not as a result of works, so no one can boast.

Faith.

FA </font>[/QUOTE]FA, define faith as you understand it

 

[Tazman]

Steaver:

Are you certain about that? I have Jesus Christ living inside me via the Holy Spirit. Did they have this unique feature?

Pretty arrogant of you.
Realize that that the spirit of God is complete but that does not mean you are. We can greive the spirit. You are not yet mature in Christ.

They were in the Presence of Them. They named Gods creation. They Heard is voice. You are just a recipient of what their live (both good and bad) set in place through Them. They had More evidence of Them than you do and yet wanted something else.

The scriptures are very clear that those who leave God never knew God.

1. Its' not they never new God, but God makes them responsable for there own sin when they leave him. So yes they are worse of now than in the beginning. Read Below and maybe you will be willing to see Gods love and consistant charactor.


The problem that you have here is that Jesus taught from the old testament and learned from it as well. So IF you are humble enough to submit to God in the Old testament without placing your "NT twist" on things you can see that God never changed.

Isaiah 64:5
You come to the help of those who gladly do right, who remember your ways. But when we continued to sin against them, you were angry. How then can we be saved?


Ezekiel 33:

12 "Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, 'The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.' 13 If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. 14 And if I say to the wicked man, 'You will surely die,' but he then turns away from his sin and does what is just and right- 15 if he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live; he will not die. 16 None of the sins he has committed will be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he will surely live.


UNDER NO COVENANT DOES GOD NOT EXPECT CONTINUED REPENTANCE.

Just think about it.

Personally I don't think your getting sharper in the proper understanding by not being willing to accept ALL of the teachings in the bible, versus just the one that may seem to support your understanding

 

[steaver]

The list given all have in common the same thing that you "claimed" to know as fact which is that ALL those in the list ALSO knew they were "ok" as fact!

This simply can not be denied in the case of the unfallen sinless angels, Adam, Eve etc.

YET they STILL chose sin "thinking" that they would still be "ok".

Sounds like OSAS -

Your own "claim" was that knowing they are OK - they would never engage in risky choices that would cause the loss of what they had. My point has been that they (like the OSAS people) did not consider the true nature of the risk when they took it. Though God stated it clearly!

Brother, I have no idea what you are talking about. I said they are "ok"???

Here is the point AGAIN....

Eve was told by God she would die if she ate the forbidden fruit. Eve was told by the devil she would not die but be like God. Eve chose to believe the Devil and NOT believe God.

Yes, Eve thought she would be ok because she DID NOT BELIEVE WHAT GOD HAD SAID. She believed that He said it, she just didn't believe it was true. Otherwise, she would not eat to be like God knowing full well she would be a dead god! See? She did not believe God on that point!

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Steaver - you seem to have forgotten your post even though I "repost it for you" again -

=============================================

In your effort to avoid the point made you are derailing your own argument and simply going in circles.

The point remains that both the SAVED TODAY and the PERFECT SINLESS examples of the past all BELIEVE that they are JUST FINE as they are!! What they ALL DOUBT is the consequence of falling.

They all seem to think that they can go into error and "Still be ok". (Sounds a bit like OSAS don't it?!)

You simply spin the point to some unclaimed ground about "they all believed they would die and chose death". But in your OWN POINT of BELIEF you stated that the BELIEF was in the LIFE given - not BELIEF in the consequence of falling! In other words you MADE the case for this point in your OWN argument!


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steaver said -
This is why I cannot understand those who say you must "keep on believing". How can I not? Jesus Christ is always in me.

Isn't Christian faith based on knowledge of fact? God given facts upon the heart? This is why I don't understand how one could begin with God's knowledge, accept it through re-birth, and then say "oh I don't believe that anymore".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There you clearly show that "what is known" is NOT the risk and consequence of falling - it is the fact of being saved! That you are "ok". The SAME fact all the sinless people and angels in the example share in common!

Now you are simply trying to cover the point up so that we all get to go back and reherse it again as we uncover what has already been said by you and by others!

==================

Do you see the part about where it says "Steaver" --?? That is you.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Eve was told by God she would die if she ate the forbidden fruit. Eve was told by the devil she would not die but be like God. Eve chose to believe the Devil and NOT believe God.

Yes, Eve thought she would be ok because she DID NOT BELIEVE WHAT GOD HAD SAID.

True enough - I wish we agreed on that point but you seem inclined to reject it.

JUST as God WARNED EVE and SHE did not believe the warning - so God WARNS His followers in Matt 18 "SO shall My Father do to each one of you IF"

JUST as EVE thought she was ok and did not need to worry about God's Warning - SOOO the OSAS group thinks THEY are ok and THEY don't need to be bothered with Christs Words in Matt 18!!

(How many times do I need to say this same thing??)

 

[steaver]

There you clearly show that "what is known" is NOT the risk and consequence of falling - it is the fact of being saved! That you are "ok". The SAME fact all the sinless people and angels in the example share in common!

It is not the same because they did not experience God's covenant of being born-again. Before the fall they had a choice to sin or not to sin. Everyone thereafter the fall, including them, has had no power to not sin. It is in the blood. This is why you need a Savior. One who has paid the price for you and is forever interceding for our pathetic, worm filled lives! The only requirement is to receive Jesus Christ as Lord. To do that one must take a step of faith and receive God's rebirth.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

JUST as God WARNED EVE and SHE did not believe the warning - so God WARNS His followers in Matt 18 "SO shall My Father do to each one of you IF"

What is God going to do to each one of His followers IF they do not forgive others?

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There you clearly show that "what is known" is NOT the risk and consequence of falling - it is the fact of being saved! That you are "ok". The SAME fact all the sinless people and angels in the example share in common!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is not the same because they did not experience God's covenant of being born-again

Indeed rather than being a sinner still bound to their sinful nature yet redeemed - they were prefect sinless holy and dwelling fully in the presence of God not seeing in a glass darkly - but seeing face to face. Not removed but in FULL fellowship!

They existed in the state WE LONG for in that age to come!!

What they "KNEW" was that they were fully accepted by God -- fully His children - fully in harmony with their Creator!

KNOWING they were JUST FINE as they were - they still underestimated the RISK of falling by ignoring the words of their Creator and Lord.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

KNOWING they were JUST FINE as they were - they still underestimated the RISK of falling by ignoring the words of their Creator and Lord.

In Christ,

Bob

"underestimated the RISK of falling by ignoring"?

God said you will surely die. Satan said you will not surely die but you will be as gods, knowing good and evil.

It is called " believe God or believe satan"

.... "underestimated the risk"

How about this one...Abraham did not underestimated the risk, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

or...That whosoever does not underestimate the risk should not perish, but have eternal life.

God Bless!