Faith "not of yourselves" Eph 2:8

Right on Don. They always seem to gloss over verse 39...BUT...WE (true Christians) ARE NOT of them who draw back UNTO PERDITION (That means "total destruction"). True Christians do not draw back unto "perdition". This very verse indicates that the writer is warning those who are playing church.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]What letter addressed to Christians does not start of with some type of salutation while during the course of it offers some admonitions?

The writer is warning christian and also reminding them of who they are.

 

Nope, not at all. Nothing is added and nothing taken away.

Obeying Jesus' commands that call us to an active faith is not work and so I must answer your question this way...

1. No, "faith alone" as you understand it does not save you and
2. Yes, Jesus' death is sufficient for payment of our sins.

If the issue is "sin being paid for" we know Jesus' death is the payment. But, it would seem that this issue here is how one accepts that payment. On what terms do one accept that payment to God.

Key word Covenant. An agreement between us and God understanding his term while we give him our lives.

Oh, c'mon now. Of course He did and that is not of ourselves, but the decision to follow him is.

Your Question assumes that you will find "grace alone" and stated earlier "Faith alone" in the bible. The ONLY time faith alone is mentioned in the word in in James 2 "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."

Do you see your pattern yet? YOU pick and choose what the "ALONES" are!

"faith" alone, "grace" alone, "Jesus" alone....

What about repentance alone, or works alone, or righteousness alone, Childlike alone, baptism alone.....

Oh my head

Grace is an enviornement God created before you thought about Him. Not of yourself.
Jesus paid the price before your were born. Gift not of yourself.

What does Jesus required in order to accept this gift? A relationship based on his commands. Simple.

His command love him by obeying his commands, repent and follow him, don't give up stay faithful, be baptized all in the envoirnment of Grace through your faith (not just beleif alone)

To answer your question... No they are not "doing enough" IF they have a faith not completed by what the DO. and If they stop believing Read Rev 3:

Hopefully you will accept (not agree, but accept) my answer as its intention was not to imply anything negative to Jesus' sacrifice. I pray that heart be far from any of us. My point is simple and is applied to those who abuse grace by their lack of commitment to holyness. Those who lesson Jesus' sacrifce to only a point of intellectual understanding but not a continued changed life. Those that accept the Grace but Reject the commitment.

The power of Gods grace in reality apart from these people is more than sufficient. But cheapened in the live of these individuals.

"Cheap Grace" is more of the beholder (bystander) than of the Giver

Romans 6:1
"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?"

Your selective view is what I see here extracting certain passages and neglecting others. Not fair!

"Alone" when applied by you become a uninspired view when leaving out other VITAL things like repentance and commitment.

"Faith" in the bible is NEVER defined by one word
"Grace" is opened ended everyone is living in it some just can appreciated more

Christ is the Word of God which God spoke MANY that should be concidered when approaching him.

The lable is a slam to anyone as defined above (including myself) if in fact we treat Gods Gift as an unholy thing.

Never made "Light" of the blood of Christ, just of the theory OSAS.

 

Actually that's exactly what it means. Nations are collectively made of persons, and in Israel most of the persons rejected Christ. They were broken off because of unbelief. That's what the passage says. Likewise, the Gentile believers in Rome are warned that they too can be broken off if they don't continue in their faith. (Recognizing that the context indeed addresses God's corporate dealings with Jews and Gentiles doesn't change the truth of the idea conveyed in verse 22 that those who don't continue in the faith will also be cut off.)

But if that one doesn't remain/abide in Christ he will be cut off (John 15:6; Romans 11:19-23).
"Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but towards you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off."

Right--the Gentiles have stood and are currently standing by faith. However to suggest that this means that they cannot stop "standing" in the future is to import your theology into the text. It would also contradict verse 22 in which Paul says the Gentiles must continue or they too will be cut off.

His point is simply that the Gentiles are presently continuing to stand by faith which indeed began at a point in time. However his point in verse 22 is that if they don't continue to do so they will be cut off.

Eternal life is not something that is something external to Christ, but rather is intrinsic to Christ Himself. That's why we must remain in Him to have life or else we'll wither and die spiritually.

 

You still are having tunnel vision brother. The Bible is much broader than you are seeing. It is the Word of God to ALL. Yes, the letters were addressed to Believers. This does not limit the message to just the saved. The OT was given to the Jews, should we Christians ignore it today? Should the unsaved ignore the letters written to Christians? The Scriptures are designed to encompass both the saved and the lost.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Steaver! Missed Ya

Real quick, you left a few items on the table on another thread "Mat 18 - Sins Revoked"

Now to continue... I do not have a negative tunnel vision. I am just merely laying a proper foundation for applying scripture in proper context. That's all.

I agree that scritures were written to Gods people, both old and new testament, for Jews and Gentiles. Jesus lays the foundation of faith in being his disciple in His teaching to His followers.

All I'm getting at is that you may want to be vary careful not to apply something that is ment for believers to nonbelievers.

 

1. The bible does not define "Works" this way why should you?

FA - I suppose it depends on how you define "ongoing." Where does the Bible say that our faith must be "ongoing" anyway?

2. What judgement do you use to draw the line at what is a "Work" or not?

FA - If it's something we must "do" IOT be saved... works.

3. When you speak of works that can't sustain us in Christ are you speaking about Christ commands and/or the Law of Moses?

FA - I'm talking about anything which the person feels must be done IOT remain in Christ.

1. Does God make a person a "New Creature" Without the individuals consent? Yes or No?

Grace and Peace </font>[/QUOTE]FA - How about "Yes" and "no"?

No, God does not make a person a new creature without faith, and that faith implies consent. No issue there. But We cannot remove God's work in drawing us to Him. IOW, God did choose us before we ever came to believe in Him.

FA

 

Tazman,

You said,

"Alone" there does not and cannot modify "faith." PISTIS is a noun. Hence it requires an adjective to modify it. MONOS is an adjective - "alone, only." But the word used there is MONON - an adverb, and it cannot modify a noun... there are no exceptions to this rule with MONON/MONOS in the NT. Some Bibles make this more clear than others.

Hence, what does MONON ("only") modify? Well, how about "justified"?

"You see that a person is justified by what he does and not only [justified] by faith."

I checked with BGreek, and they agreed that to repeat "justified" to make the reading clear was valid. What James is saying is that there is a justification before God by faith alone (no works). There is also a justification (before men - IMO, read it in context) by works. This justification by works does not relate to gaining eternal life, else Paul and James would be in direct contradiction with one another.

When a believer sees another believer in need, and helps him - that shows that his faith is active. It is a good testimony to the world. It justifies him before men, then... not for eternal life, but as a genuine Christian, and it demonstrates that Christ does change people (when they see your behavior which is not typical in the world.) If a Christian walked by anotehr believer and just prayed for him or said, "Be warm and well filled" how is that any different than we see in the world? John 13:34, 35 says that the world will know we are His disciples by our love for one another.

This view is not as common as the one you assumed, but it is more common than you might think.

Thx,

FA

 

,

I like some of what you expressed (italicied)... but where in the Bible does it say that we are saved by works, repentance or baptism? Works are the result of a changed life, not what earns it for us - it's a gift. Repentance is never used in John's gospel nor is it used in Galatians, and only once in Romans, so how can it be required IOT gain eternal life? Baptism is an act of obedience to follow trusting in Him.

And where does it say that we receive the gift of eternal life by obeying His commands? According to John 6:29 the only work required is "faith."

FA

 

What does Jesus required in order to accept this gift?

 

Faith.

FA

 

Adam did.

Lucifer did.

Eve did.

1/3 of the perfect sinless angels did.

Those in Gal 5 who "fell from grace" did.

Simply "knowing a fact" has never determined what choices a person will make. One must believe and must continue to choose that same course. "I die daily" Paul said.

Christ said in Matt 10 that we must daily take up our cross and follow Him

 

All of the perseverance texts of scripture are based on the idea of free will, "motivation" and choice to daily continue in the walk with Christ.

 

All of the ones mentioned above DID BELIEVE, but THEY DID NOT CARE. Simple. Don't discount the quality of their belief only by their response. Adam know and believed God, but trusted Eve. Eve was manipulated to believe she can be like God. She believed God, but wanted something "more".
Satan, speaks for himself - Know God, but desired to be greater than Him.

Admittedly they knew of God better than You, but yet made a choice at some point with in the relationship to turn away. They wanted something More (but it didn't exist).

 

Posted By Steaver:

It's really simple Steaver. Not everyone who leaves God, stop believing in him, some people turn away understanding the punishment to come, but wanting the pleasures of the world again. I have seen this more times than I want to remember. The scriptures are true in it's warning to believers.

Warning are to call back to repentance. Maybe right now you don't need to be called back to repentance.

or Maybe not.