Faith "not of yourselves" Eph 2:8

[Tazman]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Interesting distinction there, "believe to the saving of the soul."

Sorry for interrupting. I'm outta here.

Right on Don. They always seem to gloss over verse 39...BUT...WE (true Christians) ARE NOT of them who draw back UNTO PERDITION (That means "total destruction"). True Christians do not draw back unto "perdition". This very verse indicates that the writer is warning those who are playing church.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]What letter addressed to Christians does not start of with some type of salutation while during the course of it offers some admonitions?

The writer is warning christian and also reminding them of who they are.

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by Faith alone:
Does that mean that Jesus' death in our behalf wasn't enough, so we have to add something to it?

Nope, not at all. Nothing is added and nothing taken away.

Does it mean that faith alone doesn't save us, that works are required (again, Jesus' death on the cross was not enough to pay the penalty for our sin)?

Obeying Jesus' commands that call us to an active faith is not work and so I must answer your question this way...

1. No, "faith alone" as you understand it does not save you and
2. Yes, Jesus' death is sufficient for payment of our sins.

If the issue is "sin being paid for" we know Jesus' death is the payment. But, it would seem that this issue here is how one accepts that payment. On what terms do one accept that payment to God.

Key word Covenant. An agreement between us and God understanding his term while we give him our lives.

Does it mean that Jesus' death didn't cover all of our sin?

Oh, c'mon now. Of course He did and that is not of ourselves, but the decision to follow him is.

Does it mean that we are not saved by grace alone, that works are required?

Your Question assumes that you will find "grace alone" and stated earlier "Faith alone" in the bible. The ONLY time faith alone is mentioned in the word in in James 2 "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."

Does it mean that those who are trusting in Jesus Christ and Him alone to save them aren't doing enough?

Do you see your pattern yet? YOU pick and choose what the "ALONES" are!

"faith" alone, "grace" alone, "Jesus" alone....

What about repentance alone, or works alone, or righteousness alone, Childlike alone, baptism alone.....

Oh my head

Grace is an enviornement God created before you thought about Him. Not of yourself.
Jesus paid the price before your were born. Gift not of yourself.

What does Jesus required in order to accept this gift? A relationship based on his commands. Simple.

His command love him by obeying his commands, repent and follow him, don't give up stay faithful, be baptized all in the envoirnment of Grace through your faith (not just beleif alone)

To answer your question... No they are not "doing enough" IF they have a faith not completed by what the DO. and If they stop believing

Read Rev 3:

Just what does it mean? Just what is expensive grace? Yeah, you ruffled my feathers. Grace is not cheap. It cost the Father His Son.

Hopefully you will accept (not agree, but accept) my answer as its intention was not to imply anything negative to Jesus' sacrifice. I pray that heart be far from any of us. My point is simple and is applied to those who abuse grace by their lack of commitment to holyness. Those who lesson Jesus' sacrifce to only a point of intellectual understanding but not a continued changed life. Those that accept the Grace but Reject the commitment.

The power of Gods grace in reality apart from these people is more than sufficient. But cheapened in the live of these individuals.

"Cheap Grace" is more of the beholder (bystander) than of the Giver

Romans 6:1
"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?"

Romans 8:32 He who did not spare His opwn Son, but gave Him up for us all, will He not also share all things with us? Those who hold to salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone are simply refusing to compromise the gospel by adding works we can boast about to it. [/B]

Your selective view is what I see here extracting certain passages and neglecting others. Not fair!

"Alone" when applied by you become a uninspired view when leaving out other VITAL things like repentance and commitment.

"Faith" in the bible is NEVER defined by one word

"Grace" is opened ended everyone is living in it some just can appreciated more

Christ is the Word of God which God spoke MANY that should be concidered when approaching him.

You should feel uncomfortable to slam brothers with such a label. It's very insensitive to people for whom Christ died and makes light of the blood of Christ. Sorry... that's how I feel about it.

The lable is a slam to anyone as defined above (including myself) if in fact we treat Gods Gift as an unholy thing.

Never made "Light" of the blood of Christ, just of the theory OSAS.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Faith alone:
But Romans 11:19ff is speaking corporately of the nation of Israel and the church in Rome full of Gentile believers, which was mostly Gentile in nature. In general, the nation of Israel had been "broken off" from the vine. They had a position of favored stance. But this does not mean that some specific Jew had stopped believing and was cut off from Christ. Similarly, it does not mean that a Christian is secure as long as he continues to believe.

Actually that's exactly what it means. Nations are collectively made of persons, and in Israel most of the persons rejected Christ. They were broken off because of unbelief. That's what the passage says. Likewise, the Gentile believers in Rome are warned that they too can be broken off if they don't continue in their faith. (Recognizing that the context indeed addresses God's corporate dealings with Jews and Gentiles doesn't change the truth of the idea conveyed in verse 22 that those who don't continue in the faith will also be cut off.)

The moment, the very moment, that a person believes the gospel - trusts in Christ - he is a new creature. He is born from above, God does it. And once done, it cannot be undone.

But if that one doesn't remain/abide in Christ he will be cut off (John 15:6; Romans 11:19-23).
"Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but towards you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off."

But in Romans 11:20 "stands" is ESTHKAS - which is not present tense but perfect tense... "you have stood and remain standing by faith," or something like that. IOW, it speaks of something which happened at a point-in-time in the past (it is not linear), but which has a state continuing into the present... a state of having stood by faith.

Right--the Gentiles have stood and are currently standing by faith. However to suggest that this means that they cannot stop "standing" in the future is to import your theology into the text. It would also contradict verse 22 in which Paul says the Gentiles must continue or they too will be cut off.

Paul's point is that we are in a position of standing in our position in Christ based on a point-in-time kind of action in the past (when we trusted in Christ) and that the effects remain in the present.

His point is simply that the Gentiles are presently continuing to stand by faith which indeed began at a point in time. However his point in verse 22 is that if they don't continue to do so they will be cut off.

Eternal life is not something that is something external to Christ, but rather is intrinsic to Christ Himself. That's why we must remain in Him to have life or else we'll wither and die spiritually.

 

[steaver]

I can buy the argument that you make that since anyone in Christ is a new creature, and indwelt by the Spirit that he will continue to believe. But not all Christians continue to trust Christ in their daily lives. They trust in their own efforts. That's my concern.

There is difference between trusting in Christ for salvation and trusting in Christ for our daily living. One cannot fail, the latter can. How many times do we go to our Lord in prayer about an issue and rather than waiting on God for a response we go ahead on our own and try to force a result? The issue surrounding OSAS is solely justification through faith, not of yourselves.

Second question. Does the fact that some Christians erroniously believe that faith in Christ plus sinlessness is what saves them nullify their salvation. In other words, does erroring in doctrine nullify their faith? I don't think so. Just because some here believe that they must be sinless to gain salvation does not mean that they will not be saved by faith alone just like you and I.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

What letter addressed to Christians does not start of with some type of salutation while during the course of it offers some admonitions?

The writer is warning christian and also reminding them of who they are.

You still are having tunnel vision brother. The Bible is much broader than you are seeing. It is the Word of God to ALL. Yes, the letters were addressed to Believers. This does not limit the message to just the saved. The OT was given to the Jews, should we Christians ignore it today? Should the unsaved ignore the letters written to Christians? The Scriptures are designed to encompass both the saved and the lost.

God Bless!

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> What letter addressed to Christians does not start of with some type of salutation while during the course of it offers some admonitions?

The writer is warning christian and also reminding them of who they are.

You still are having tunnel vision brother. The Bible is much broader than you are seeing. It is the Word of God to ALL. Yes, the letters were addressed to Believers. This does not limit the message to just the saved. The OT was given to the Jews, should we Christians ignore it today? Should the unsaved ignore the letters written to Christians? The Scriptures are designed to encompass both the saved and the lost.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Steaver! Missed Ya

Real quick, you left a few items on the table on another thread "Mat 18 - Sins Revoked"

Now to continue... I do not have a negative tunnel vision. I am just merely laying a proper foundation for applying scripture in proper context. That's all.

I agree that scritures were written to Gods people, both old and new testament, for Jews and Gentiles. Jesus lays the foundation of faith in being his disciple in His teaching to His followers.

All I'm getting at is that you may want to be vary careful not to apply something that is ment for believers to nonbelievers.

 

[Faith alone]

Originally posted by Tazman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Faith alone:

If it must be ongoing, then it must be something we do, apparently, which makes it works.

1. The bible does not define "Works" this way why should you?

FA - I suppose it depends on how you define "ongoing." Where does the Bible say that our faith must be "ongoing" anyway?

2. What judgement do you use to draw the line at what is a "Work" or not?

FA - If it's something we must "do" IOT be saved... works.

3. When you speak of works that can't sustain us in Christ are you speaking about Christ commands and/or the Law of Moses?

FA - I'm talking about anything which the person feels must be done IOT remain in Christ.

I look at it like this: when someone trusts in Christ, he is re-born, he becomes a new creature - God does it.

1. Does God make a person a "New Creature" Without the individuals consent? Yes or No?

Grace and Peace </font>[/QUOTE]FA - How about "Yes" and "no"?

No, God does not make a person a new creature without faith, and that faith implies consent. No issue there. But We cannot remove God's work in drawing us to Him. IOW, God did choose us before we ever came to believe in Him.

FA

 

[Faith alone]

Tazman,

You said,

Your Question assumes that you will find "grace alone" and stated earlier "Faith alone" in the bible. The ONLY time faith alone is mentioned in the word in in James 2 "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."

"Alone" there does not and cannot modify "faith." PISTIS is a noun. Hence it requires an adjective to modify it. MONOS is an adjective - "alone, only." But the word used there is MONON - an adverb, and it cannot modify a noun... there are no exceptions to this rule with MONON/MONOS in the NT. Some Bibles make this more clear than others.

Hence, what does MONON ("only") modify? Well, how about "justified"?

"You see that a person is justified by what he does and not only [justified] by faith."

I checked with BGreek, and they agreed that to repeat "justified" to make the reading clear was valid. What James is saying is that there is a justification before God by faith alone (no works). There is also a justification (before men - IMO, read it in context) by works. This justification by works does not relate to gaining eternal life, else Paul and James would be in direct contradiction with one another.

When a believer sees another believer in need, and helps him - that shows that his faith is active. It is a good testimony to the world. It justifies him before men, then... not for eternal life, but as a genuine Christian, and it demonstrates that Christ does change people (when they see your behavior which is not typical in the world.) If a Christian walked by anotehr believer and just prayed for him or said, "Be warm and well filled" how is that any different than we see in the world? John 13:34, 35 says that the world will know we are His disciples by our love for one another.

This view is not as common as the one you assumed, but it is more common than you might think.

Thx,

FA

 

[Faith alone]

,

Do you see your pattern yet? YOU pick and choose what the "ALONES" are!

"faith" alone, "grace" alone, "Jesus" alone....

FA - Per Ephesians 2:8, 9 If it is "by grace through faith, and this is not of works - not your doing, but a gift," how more clear that no works are involved (hence "alone") can you get?

What about repentance alone, or works alone, or righteousness alone, Childlike alone, baptism alone.....

Oh my head []

Grace is an environment God created before you thought about Him. Not of yourself.
Jesus paid the price before your were born. Gift not of yourself.

What does Jesus required in order to accept this gift? A relationship based on his commands. Simple.

I like some of what you expressed (italicied)... but where in the Bible does it say that we are saved by works, repentance or baptism? Works are the result of a changed life, not what earns it for us - it's a gift. Repentance is never used in John's gospel nor is it used in Galatians, and only once in Romans, so how can it be required IOT gain eternal life? Baptism is an act of obedience to follow trusting in Him.

And where does it say that we receive the gift of eternal life by obeying His commands? According to John 6:29 the only work required is "faith."

FA

 

[Tazman]

What does Jesus required in order to accept this gift?

 

[Faith alone]

Originally posted by Tazman:
What does Jesus required in order to accept this gift?

Ephesians 2:8, 9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this [salvation] is not you own doing; it is a gift of God, not as a result of works, so no one can boast.

Faith.

FA

 

[steaver]

I understand the initial response of receiving God's gift of eternal life and all that encompasses that (Holy Spirit, born-again, new creature) is done by one act of faith.

My heart was pricked with conviction when I heard about Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. This conviction was an act of God, not I. Feeling the weight of my sins was also an act of God, not I. By faith I agreed to receive Jesus Christ as my Savior only because I received knowledge by conviction that I needed Jesus Christ.

What I am having trouble with is defining the line between knowledge and faith. Surely the faith I placed in Jesus Christ that day was born out of the knowledge God gave me about myself and about His Son. It is true that I could have resisted and turned away. Maybe another day I would be visited again with God's conviction or maybe never again.

So this leaves me with two points.

#1 Is "my" faith pure faith? Is faith simply faith or is there blind faith and knowledgeable faith? This is why I asked is faith of myself or has God produced that faith within me? Isn't faith the substance of things not seen? I have been given knowledge about Truths but I do not "see" Jesus Christ, so that would be faith, correct? Even though in my heart it has been witnessed as true.

#2 Since that day I placed "my" faith in Jesus Christ I have never doubted what I have received. I became one with Jesus, born-again, and I never think about whether or not I believe in Jesus Christ. "My" faith is always present with me. Like it was said, it is like breathing, I don't think about it, it just happens. How can I believe one can lose faith when I personally know in my own life I have never had not believing cross my mind? Am I any better than anybody else? God is no respector of persons. Why is my faith in Jesus Christ for salvation never brought into question within my spirit? Doubt just isn't there, never ever was, and it has been 32 years.

This is why I cannot understand those who say you must "keep on believing". How can I not? Jesus Christ is always in me.

Isn't Christian faith based on knowledge of fact? God given facts upon the heart? This is why I don't understand how one could begin with God's knowledge, accept it through re-birth, and then say "oh I don't believe that anymore". How do you stop believing that which you have learned is an absolute truth?

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Adam did.

Lucifer did.

Eve did.

1/3 of the perfect sinless angels did.

Those in Gal 5 who "fell from grace" did.

Simply "knowing a fact" has never determined what choices a person will make. One must believe and must continue to choose that same course. "I die daily" Paul said.

Christ said in Matt 10 that we must daily take up our cross and follow Him

 

[BobRyan]

All of the perseverance texts of scripture are based on the idea of free will, "motivation" and choice to daily continue in the walk with Christ.

 

[steaver]

Adam knew what God had said, he chose not to believe it.

Lucifer knew what God had said, he chose not to believe it.

Eve knew what God had said, she chose not to believe it.

1/3 of the perfect sinless angels knew what God had said, they chose not to believe it.

Billions of people have known or now know what God has said, and choose not to believe it.

They all know what He said because truth is always truth whether one believes it or not. Accepting it as truth is another matter.

You missed part of my statement...

"Isn't Christian faith based on knowledge of fact? God given facts upon the heart (this would mean conviction as truth by God, not by faith)? This is why I don't understand how one could begin with God's knowledge, accept it through re-birth , and then say "oh I don't believe that anymore". How do you stop believing that which you have learned is an absolute truth?"

You just never have gotten a grasp on born-again brother. A new creature, old has past away. The Spirit of Christ joined with the spirit of man. This is the new creature. It is not the old man joined with Christ. It is a NEW CREATURE. The old man is crucified with Christ. Crucified would mean never again to live. A new man is raised to life. A man possessing eternal life within through the Spirit of Christ. It cannot be recalled or undone, hence it is called a "birth". If this creature can now go to hell it must needs go there as one, the Spirit of Christ joined with the spirit of a new man. One cannot change what God has made them in Christ, nor would they ever want to. Would you Bob? Have you ever been lost after your rebirth? It has been thirty-two years for me. I have been many terrible things in those 32 years, but never once stopped believing. Maybe I am just a special case! Have you ever been lost since rebirth(saved)?

God Bless!

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by steaver:
Adam knew what God had said, he chose not to believe it.

Lucifer knew what God had said, he chose not to believe it.

Eve knew what God had said, she chose not to believe it.

1/3 of the perfect sinless angels knew what God had said, they chose not to believe it.

All of the ones mentioned above DID BELIEVE, but THEY DID NOT CARE. Simple. Don't discount the quality of their belief only by their response. Adam know and believed God, but trusted Eve. Eve was manipulated to believe she can be like God. She believed God, but wanted something "more".
Satan, speaks for himself - Know God, but desired to be greater than Him.

Admittedly they knew of God better than You, but yet made a choice at some point with in the relationship to turn away. They wanted something More (but it didn't exist).

 

[Tazman]

Posted By Steaver:

Isn't Christian faith based on knowledge of fact? God given facts upon the heart? This is why I don't understand how one could begin with God's knowledge, accept it through re-birth, and then say "oh I don't believe that anymore". How do you stop believing that which you have learned is an absolute truth?

It's really simple Steaver. Not everyone who leaves God, stop believing in him, some people turn away understanding the punishment to come, but wanting the pleasures of the world again. I have seen this more times than I want to remember. The scriptures are true in it's warning to believers.

Warning are to call back to repentance. Maybe right now you don't need to be called back to repentance.

or Maybe not.

 

[steaver]

All of the ones mentioned above DID BELIEVE, but THEY DID NOT CARE. Simple.

I guess Adam did not care then if he died when he ate. I don't know what he had to gain if he believed he would be dead after he ate!

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

And Eve believed she would be dead after she ate but decided she would eat anyways and be like God. Yeah that makes alot of sense! That is simple indeed!

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Admittedly they knew of God better than You,

Are you certain about that? I have Jesus Christ living inside me via the Holy Spirit. Did they have this unique feature?

It's really simple Steaver. Not everyone who leaves God, stop believing in him,

The scriptures are very clear that those who leave God never knew God. And it is not that they actually leave God. They leave the path to God which leads to faith in Jesus Christ through a rebirth. Many leave before they reach the birth. Jesus makes this clear in John 8 and Matt 7. True believers continue in the doctrine of Christ. Anyone else is a child of Satan whether they look like, smell like, or walk like a believer in Christ to the human eye. In the end only true "born-again" believers are truly saved. It is that "simple". Don't wrestle so much with the scriptures, let God have all the glory! Salvation is of the LORD, not man.

God Bless!