George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Agreed, and that case was made in post 31 by means of cross-references in the KJB only.
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Faith of Jesus or In Jesus?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
None of this changes the fact that it's confusing. It makes it sound like Christ did things by faith when He did nothing by faith. When He walked on water, was that by faith? Cleansed the lepers? Raised the dead?
Did He know His Father by faith?
No. He did these things by His own power.
Thanks again for your views, but I disagree with some of them.
yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. (NET)
My brothers, don't hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of glory with partiality. (WEB)
Note that is this usage "faith" refers to the teachings of Jesus, rather than belief in Jesus. If you are partial to the rich, you are not holding to the teachings of Christ.
You didn't get that notion from me.
He, as our example to follow always, did He or did He not demonstrate faith in God to do the right thing here?:
who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 1 Pet 2:23
And did not God prove Himself to be faithful by raising Him from the dead?
I didn't say I got that notion from you. I'm saying it's a confusion inherent in the suggested clunky new translation of Mark 11:22 .
As you know, faith can mean truth. Faith can mean loyalty. Faith can mean standard of belief. It can mean belief, trust, trustworthiness, assurance; it is s nuanced word. It can mean a lot of things. I'm not forgetting it's a translation of other words with more definite meanings.
But another thing that faith means is the belief in things not seen, born in the heart of a believer by God, by which one is saved. For we walk by faith, not by sight. 'We' meaning the Redeemed of earth. And ninety percent of the time that someone speaks of faith, this is what they're speaking of. Jesus did not have faith in that sense. Not even as our substitute. He needed none. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. He is not redeemed. He is the Redeemer. But I suspect that in the zeal to prove that faith in God is not inherent in the unsaved, some Calvinists are suggesting that Christ had to exercise faith on earth to be our substitute 'in all ways.' And that's ridiculous if not heretical.
I'm just saying that the wording "faith of Christ" in some instances, especially in this new wave of translation 'improvement' which seems borne of the desire to prove a point more than the faithful presentation of a text, is clunky and confusing.
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I wasn't aware that the newer translations are going with 'faith of', only the KJV.
Here is another example, Philippians 1:27 (HCSB): Just one thing: Live your life in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or am absent, I will hear about you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind, working side by side for the faith that comes from the gospel,
(NASB)Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
(CEV) Above all else, you must live in a way that brings honor to the good news about Christ. Then, whether I visit you or not, I will hear that all of you think alike. I will know that you are working together and are struggling side by side to get others to believe the good news.
So which message was intended? Were they striving to protect the content, the teachings, of the gospel, or were they striving to get others to believe the gospel message?
(NASB)Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
(CEV) Above all else, you must live in a way that brings honor to the good news about Christ. Then, whether I visit you or not, I will hear that all of you think alike. I will know that you are working together and are struggling side by side to get others to believe the good news.
So which message was intended? Were they striving to protect the content, the teachings, of the gospel, or were they striving to get others to believe the gospel message?
That is my concern on this issue, as do not see that Jesus had and exercised faith in the same sense that we do towards God!
I understand us placing in Jesus, and Jesus being faithful, just do not see Him as having and exercising faith as we do!
Two things are clear. It is not the Gospel that believes; nor is it the Gospel's faithfulness. It is faith towards or in respect of the Gospel, or maybe the faith that comes from the preaching of the Gospel. Since it is 'the faith,' it means the 'faith once delivered to the saints' (Jude 3). Maybe we should start a thread on what exactly that is.
That faith in that context would mean the NT doctrines and revelation from Jesus and his Apostles, correct?Two things are clear. It is not the Gospel that believes; nor is it the Gospel's faithfulness. It is faith towards or in respect of the Gospel, or maybe the faith that comes from the preaching of the Gospel. Since it is 'the faith,' it means the 'faith once delivered to the saints' (Jude 3). Maybe we should start a thread on what exactly that is.
No need, you have taken the view were striving to get others to believe the gospel message, but some take the same verse to mean they were striving to protect the pure gospel message.Two things are clear. It is not the Gospel that believes; nor is it the Gospel's faithfulness. It is faith towards or in respect of the Gospel, or maybe the faith that comes from the preaching of the Gospel. Since it is 'the faith,' it means the 'faith once delivered to the saints' (Jude 3). Maybe we should start a thread on what exactly that is.
The issue is how to translate these constructions consistently.
The gospel tells of life and immortality, it does not impart it. Christ the life giving spirit alone has abolished death and imparts life and immortalitry:
10 but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Tim 1
Okay. New debate then.
The quote is from the HCSB, so your dispute is with them.
If the same Greek phrase is translated two different ways, one version must be in error, but both could be.
through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, Heb 5:8
What obedience did he learn? I say, obedience of faith.
What is faith? Substance of hope, evidence of unseen.
What s the promise of God made before the world began? In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:2 The obedience of faith / substance of hope.
Hebrews 5:7 who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared,
For the sinless one who had been made sin, saved, out of death, to receive the promise of God.
IMHO The righteousness of God!
Consider:
Gal 3:14 YLT that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith.
Textus Receptus
3:14 ἵνα εἰς τὰ ἔθνη ἡ εὐλογία τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ γένηται ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἵνα τὴν ἐπαγγελίαν τοῦ πνεύματος λάβωμεν διὰ τῆς πίστεως
Morphological GNT
3:14 ἵνα εἰς τὰ ἔθνη ἡ εὐλογία τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ γένηται ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἵνα τὴν ἐπαγγελίαν τοῦ πνεύματος λάβωμεν διὰ τῆς πίστεως
The Spirit is received because of a specific, faith, the faith.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Where was Jesus about to go for three days and three nights?
Is, the faith, Jesus going away? Dead for three days and three nights?
Now consider: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:8
Textus Receptus
2:8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·
Is that the very same, "the faith," of Gal 3:14? ----- Another question? --- If Jesus who died for our sins had not have been raised from the dead, given life again from the dead, would we be saved? Would there even be faith?
1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
IMHO The resurrection of Jesus is the grace of God. And is relative to the righteousness of God. See Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Eph 2:8 should read: To the, for grace, ye are ones having been saved, through the faith,
We are heirs, not yet inheritors, of the grace of life see 1 Peter 3:7 To the for grace.
Gal 3:14 YLT that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith.
Textus Receptus
3:14 ἵνα εἰς τὰ ἔθνη ἡ εὐλογία τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ γένηται ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἵνα τὴν ἐπαγγελίαν τοῦ πνεύματος λάβωμεν διὰ τῆς πίστεως
Morphological GNT
3:14 ἵνα εἰς τὰ ἔθνη ἡ εὐλογία τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ γένηται ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἵνα τὴν ἐπαγγελίαν τοῦ πνεύματος λάβωμεν διὰ τῆς πίστεως
The Spirit is received because of a specific, faith, the faith.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Where was Jesus about to go for three days and three nights?
Is, the faith, Jesus going away? Dead for three days and three nights?
Now consider: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:8
Textus Receptus
2:8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·
Is that the very same, "the faith," of Gal 3:14? ----- Another question? --- If Jesus who died for our sins had not have been raised from the dead, given life again from the dead, would we be saved? Would there even be faith?
1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
IMHO The resurrection of Jesus is the grace of God. And is relative to the righteousness of God. See Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Eph 2:8 should read: To the, for grace, ye are ones having been saved, through the faith,
We are heirs, not yet inheritors, of the grace of life see 1 Peter 3:7 To the for grace.