Faith Precedes Regeneration - Note What Spurgeon Said

[DaveXR650]

Satan did as God directed.

Austin, this is the whole point. Satan did those things to the extent God allowed and was restricted by God. God was limiting Satan. Satan was not going along dancing through the flowers on Earth and God put him up to that. Even Satan charges that God put a hedge around Job. He had been wanting to get at Job all along. No one is saying that God doesn't accomplish his purposes sometimes by using means of evil men or in this case Satan himself. My concern is that some of you guys are going further - you are going along with Cheung, and Ken who are charging God directly as a cause of moral evil.

And actually, because of the fact that since the fall we all die and God must determine when, of course God sends calamity and earthquakes, disease, famine, hurricanes, and so on according to His wisdom. But I'm saying don't use Job to prove that God Himself directly causes moral evil because in this case, it was Satan. And if you choose to use that scripture to prove your point you have a problem in that the sin involved or not done is NOT indicated as being caused by God. In all these things, Job did not sin with his mouth. His friends sinned later by pontificating about Job's guilt. No mention of God being the cause of their sin. Were they random molecules? God does not tempt people to sin. Take it up with James.

 

[AustinC]

Austin, this is the whole point. Satan did those things to the extent God allowed and was restricted by God. God was limiting Satan. Satan was not going along dancing through the flowers on Earth and God put him up to that. Even Satan charges that God put a hedge around Job. He had been wanting to get at Job all along. No one is saying that God doesn't accomplish his purposes sometimes by using means of evil men or in this case Satan himself. My concern is that some of you guys are going further - you are going along with Cheung, and Ken who are charging God directly as a cause of moral evil.

And actually, because of the fact that since the fall we all die and God must determine when, of course God sends calamity and earthquakes, disease, famine, hurricanes, and so on according to His wisdom. But I'm saying don't use Job to prove that God Himself directly causes moral evil because in this case, it was Satan. And if you choose to use that scripture to prove your point you have a problem in that the sin involved or not done is NOT indicated as being caused by God. In all these things, Job did not sin with his mouth. His friends sinned later by pontificating about Job's guilt. No mention of God being the cause of their sin. Were they random molecules? God does not tempt people to sin. Take it up with James.

Read it again, Dave. Satan wasn't even thinking of Job until God brought Job up. God instigated the entire thing. God remains good, even when God gives direction to Satan to be able to kill Job's children.
Certainly Satan carried out the things that God allowed, which begs the question of who is the ultimate cause. Romans 9 begs the same question. Paul tells us the answer, but we often don't like the answer because ultimately our flesh wants to hold God to our standard of righteousness and holiness. We think that God must act in a certain way and then we create scenarios to fit God into our box. In reality, we have to accept that God does things according to His will that we just cannot understand or reconcile. We have to leave it as a mystery and believe that God is by nature Good no matter what evil He ordains.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You have no basis to say that God "is more guilty than Satan". That statement is a really deep lack of understanding of God as He is described in the Bible. I can sympathize as I used to be ignorant of God as my totally sovereign Creator as well.

I did not say that God is more guilty than Satan. Satan is the father of the lie, not God. Perhaps you should read my post again.
Also, I believe unreservedly in the total sovereignty of God. What I do not believe is that in order to be sovereign He has to make mankind into robots or Stepford wives. He is much smarter than that.
Before conversion, men and women exercise their free will to reject Christ (e.g. John 3:19) because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts. Their inability to come to Christ is not constitutional but moral and spiritual. If they would come to Christ they would be saved (Acts of the Apostles 2:21), but they will not (John 5:40). But when God gives them a new heart and a new spirit, they willingly (Psalms 110:3) come.

It is all of God, but does not bypass the human will; it changes and renews it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

But I'm saying don't use Job to prove that God Himself directly causes moral evil because in this case, it was Satan.

Exactly! 'In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong' (Job 1:22). In allowing Satan to afflict Job, God had a higher purpose, which is why it is in the Bible for our education.

 

[KenH]

Before conversion, men and women exercise their free wil

God's creation has no "libertarian free will". If man did, then man could come to Christ on his own, but he cannot.

when God gives them a new heart and a new spirit, they willingly (Psalms 110:3) come.

True. Psalms 110:3

it changes and renews it.

True. Ezekiel 36:26-27

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@Eternally Grateful ,
It is very kind of you to agree with my post #26, but my reason for posting was to show that Justification cannot precede regeneration. God takes the guilty sinner and gives him new birth in Christ Jesus; then the sinner is brought to faith and repentance. God opened Lydia's heart; then she was able to respond to the words spoken by Paul. i Corinthians 2:14 is the key text.

God opened her heart. He did not make her born again. He would have to go against his whole justice.. She also had to chose to make the decision to trust him..

However, I believe that the New Birth does not always come all at once. People sometimes experience awakening, when, for the first time they start to think about the things of eternity. They may experience conviction, when they come to see that their lives are sinful, but they may have no idea what to do about that and have no knowledge of Jesus Christ. Cornelius probably came under this heading, and if you read John Bunyan's autobiography, you will find that he underwent months of the most painful conviction of sin before finding peace in Christ.. But the New Birth ends in repentance of sins and faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross before God declares the sinner righteous (i.e. justifies him) on the basis of that work.

Conviction and drawing I agree. comes in different ways and different timing. some it takes alot longer than others.

but until the penalty of sin is removed (Justification) one is dead in their sin.. the penalty of sin is death.

We are justified by faith. once we are justified (declaired righteous. or imputed as Abraham with Christ's righteousness) we are immediately given new life, new birth. and this life is eternal.

Jesus explained how one is born again.

Just as moses lifted the serpent. so must the son of man be lifted up.; that whoever believes in him will never perish but has eternal life. For god so loved the world he gave his only begotten son. that whoever believes in him will never perish, but has eternal life (new birth) For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. he who believes in him is not condemned. but he who does not believe is condemned already.

Fith or lack of faith is the determining factor.

do we trust God or not..

Abraham did. And God accounted it to him as righteousness.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not at all. The source is God and the willingness to believe comes from God. He gives the gift of faith to His elect(Ephesians 2:1-10). There is not one single person for whom Christ died who will be lost. To teach such is to teach a false gospel.

lol.. this is nonsense.

Jesus died for many who will be lost. He chose Israel. and many of them, even though he wanted to gather them together as a mother hen, but THEY WERE NOT WILLING.

Stop thinking you are so special. Your not.. Your just as lost as any sinner..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I read what you wrote and speak truth.

I responded:
Your comments glorify man's ability to merit God's salvation. You have man being the one who determines salvation rather than God. You place God below man. You make God man's personal genie who only acts according to man's choices.

Man can not merit salvation because they placed their faith in someone else.

So you are bearing false witness.. Because I did not merit anything. I placed my trust in someone else to completely save me, because I became poor in spirit.. As jesus said we must do to enter the kingdom of God

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Furthermore faith cannot come before regeneration because before that, men are yet in the flesh and consequently cannot please God, which Faith is a grace that the regenerate have that does please God Heb 11:6. However they which are in the flesh cannot please God says scripture authority Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Now this can only be the unregenerate unbeliever who is in the flesh, because the believer who has the Spirit isnt in the flesh says scripture authority Rom 8:9

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

lol..

Once again, My placing my FAITH in someone I have never met, have never seen, and in a work I never witnessed is not me saving my self or me acting in the flesh.

Works of the flesh are to serve self. When you empty yourself and fall on your knees not even able to look up. your not serving yourself. your crying out for Gods mercy..

The tax collector was dead when he fell on his knees. He was alive when God saved him

 

[KenH]

lol.. this is nonsense.

Not at all.

Jesus died for many who will be lost.

Totally false.

but THEY WERE NOT WILLING.

No one is willing unless God makes them willing. Psalms 110:3

Stop thinking you are so special. Your not.

I couldn't agree more.

By the way, the word you should have used is "you're", not "your".

Your just as lost as any sinner.

I am still a sinner. But I am now a saved sinner by the sovereign grace of God.

There are only two classes of people - sinners who are lost and sinners who are saved by the sovereign grace of God.

By the way, the word you should have used is "you're", not "your".

 

[KenH]

The tax collector was dead when he fell on his knees.

Where do you get the idea in Luke chapter 18 that he fell on his knees? Luke 18:13 says he was standing.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not at all.



Totally false.



No one is willing unless God makes them willing. Psalms 110:3



I couldn't agree more.

By the way, the word you should have used is "you're", not "your".



I am still a sinner. But I am now a saved sinner by the sovereign grace of God.

There are only two classes of people - sinners who are lost and sinners who are saved by the sovereign grace of God.

By the way, the word you should have used is "you're", not "your".

God willed Jerusalem to repent.

they did not


this destroyed your whole theology.

God did not force mankind to sin. and be lost. he will not force people to believe so they can be saved.

sadly, I fear You do not know God at all

 

[KenH]

God willed Jerusalem to repent.

Nope.

this destroyed your whole theology.

Nope.

 

[KenH]

he will not force people to believe so they can be saved.

True, He makes them wlling in the day of His power. See Psalms 110:3.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Where do you get the idea in Luke chapter 18 that he fell on his knees? Luke 18:13 says he was standing.

leave it to you to find fault, and ignore the context of what happened

it does not matter if he was standing or kneeling, HE WAS DEAD..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Nope.



Nope.

Matthew 23:37
Jesus Laments over Jerusalem
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

So you call Jesus a liar.

thank you!

 

[KenH]

leave it to you to find fault, and ignore the context of what happened

It was your misstatement. No reason for your reaction.

it does not matter if he was standing or kneeling, HE WAS DEAD

True, until God regenerated him and granted the gifts of faith and repentance from dead works.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

God's creation has no "libertarian free will". If man did, then man could come to Christ on his own, but he cannot.

Of course, I did not mention the word 'libertarian,' but is there really such a thing as libertarian free will? If you offer me the choice of tea or coffee, do I have libertarian free will or is my will conditioned by the fact that I prefer the taste of coffee? If you offer a man the choice of Christ or sin, does he have complete liberty of choice? Of course not! 'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men preferred darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil.' But when God gives man a new heart and a new spirit in the New Birth, then he will freely prefer Christ because Christ has set him free (John 8:32). Is that libertarian free will? Perhaps not, because he now prefers light to darkness.

 

[KenH]

So you call Jesus a liar.

You called Christ a liar when you said that He died for goats, when He said that He died for His sheep.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

True, He makes them wlling in the day of His power. See Psalms 110:3.

nope

if they have no way to still reject. he forced them..

Just like he forced adam and eve to eat of the fruit, then punished them and the whole human race for something they had no choice or way to stop.