Faith received part deux

[JesusFan]

OK, Let's explore that. Adam sinned, and so he was "dead." Yet at the same time he was able to communicate with God. "Adam, where art thou?"

And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. (Genesis 3:10)

And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? (Genesis 3:11)

And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. (Genesis 3:12)

And the conversation continues. Adam and God could have a conversation even though Adam was "dead." Please explain how that can be, and how it fits into your definition of "dead."

Again, the Devil can speak to Jesus, hear him, try to tempt Him, etc
Physical/mentally he is very much alive, Dead in a spritual side to God though

Same way we are to God
Can "hear Him/talk to Him/read Bible etc" but until He 'wakes us up" we are not able to establish a spiritual relationship we Him....

"We are like sheeps, ALL of us gone astry from the Sheperd of our souls"

 

[DHK]

Again, the Devil can speak to Jesus, hear him, try to tempt Him, etc
Physical/mentally he is very much alive, Dead in a spritual side to God though

Same way we are to God
Can "hear Him/talk to Him/read Bible etc" but until He 'wakes us up" we are not able to establish a spiritual relationship we Him....

"We are like sheeps, ALL of us gone astry from the Sheperd of our souls"

But Adam did not need to be woken up. He was having an active conversation with God. How was he dead then?

 

[preacher4truth]

But Adam did not need to be woken up. He was having an active conversation with God. How was he dead then?

Wasn't his conversation physical? Don't the physically alive all (excluding the dumb) have the ability to speak who are spiritually lost?

I believe it was that he was dead in sins, unable to save himself, nekros, spiritually, a corpse. Or, totally incapable.

The whole idea of save means what? It means to rescue.

It doesn't mean to help a little, but implies total inability on the part of the one being rescued.

God did 100%. Preacher4truth? 0%. :thumbsup:

I was dead, and His calling me quickened me. My faith is recognition (consciously in the quickened state His Word awakened me to) that He saved me. Faith itself being a Gift of Grace, as well as repentance, sanctification &c. As a matter of fact, nothing I have now is anything but what He gave me.

 

[JesusFan]

But Adam did not need to be woken up. He was having an active conversation with God. How was he dead then?

Well...

GOD said to Adam that IF you eat of thre Fruit in the Garden you will SURELY die...

Adam sinned, he did not just have a heart attack and die did he?

Could it meant that he and all of Humanity "died" Spiritual, no longer able to establish a relationship to God by their own efforts?

God said they would die, satan said they would not...

Whch one do you see speaking the truth here?

 

[preacher4truth]

Well...

GOD said to Adam that IF you eat of thre Fruit in the Garden you will SURELY die...

Adam sinned, he did not just have a heart attack and die did he?

Could it meant that he and all of Humanity "died" Spiritual, no longer able to establish a relationship to God by their own efforts?

God said they would die, satan said they would not...

Whch one do you see speaking the truth here?

You are right on track here. Satan basically said "you won't really be dead." They were. He lied. There needs to be some understanding between being physically dead (where you can't hold a converstaion) and spiritually (where you need enabled by God)

 

[JesusFan]

You are right on track here. Satan basically said "you won't really be dead." They were. He lied. There needs to be some understanding between being physically dead (where you can't hold a converstaion) and spiritually (where you need enabled by God)

There HAD to be a change in relationship to them and God, as both were now shamed and afraid of God!

They "knew" good and evil, and realised they were sinners before a Holy God!

 

[DHK]

Wasn't his conversation physical? Don't the physically alive all (excluding the dumb) have the ability to speak who are spiritually lost?

His conversation was physical and spiritual. How can you have a talk with God and it not be spiritual?

I believe it was that he was dead in sins, unable to save himself, nekros, spiritually, a corpse. Or, totally incapable.

There is where your definition of "dead" is wrong. That is not what "dead" means in the Bible. It is not "corpse", incapable, or lifeless. It does not mean that at all.

The whole idea of save means what? It means to rescue.

It doesn't mean to help a little, but implies total inability on the part of the one being rescued.

God did 100%. Preacher4truth? 0%. :thumbsup:

I was dead, and His calling me quickened me. My faith is recognition (consciously in the quickened state His Word awakened me to) that He saved me. Faith itself being a Gift of Grace, as well as repentance, sanctification &c. As a matter of fact, nothing I have now is anything but what He gave me.

There is the homily for the day. The conclusion is wrong because the premise is wrong. If you don't know what "dead" means, and start with a wrong meaning, then the rest of which you say is going to be erroneous. If you want a good meaning of "dead" see what Webdog posted on the other thread, recently opened.

 

[DHK]

Well...

GOD said to Adam that IF you eat of thre Fruit in the Garden you will SURELY die...

And he did. But how is the question?

Adam sinned, he did not just have a heart attack and die did he?

He might have. The Bible doesn't say how.
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. (Genesis 5:5)
--It simply says "he died."
But that is not speaking of what happened when he died spiritually.

Could it meant that he and all of Humanity "died" Spiritual, no longer able to establish a relationship to God by their own efforts?

No, I don't believe that is the case either.

God said they would die, satan said they would not...

Whch one do you see speaking the truth here?

God of course. The key to the answer here is found here:

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. (Genesis 3:21)
--This is a key verse, and very important in the lives of Adam and Eve.

 

[DHK]

You are right on track here. Satan basically said "you won't really be dead." They were. He lied. There needs to be some understanding between being physically dead (where you can't hold a converstaion) and spiritually (where you need enabled by God)

But they could do both, as the record shows.

 

[preacher4truth]

There HAD to be a change in relationship to them and God, as both were now shamed and afraid of God!

They "knew" good and evil, and realised they were sinners before a Holy God!

He can't grasp it bro.

He was talking physically, that is what the "record" shows, and the "record" shows that he was dead, spiritually. To believe otherwise, is to believe Satan that he wouldn't really be "dead." But he was.

So if dead spiritually, he was unable and totally separated from God. Not just in need of a little help as is the implication. That's in the text, to say otherwise is conjecture and eisegetical.

I'll stick with the Word.

When I got saved, I knew He awoke me, and I knew I was lost, not just in need of a little help.

He did it all. Not just some of it. All.

 

[JesusFan]

But they could do both, as the record shows.

Their body/mind converse witht he Lord, their souls/spirit had died to God, even they knew "something: had happened, by them NOW being afraid of God!

 

[DHK]

He can't grasp it bro.

He was talking physically, that is what the "record" shows, and the "record" shows that he was dead, spiritually. To believe otherwise, is to believe Satan that he wouldn't really be "dead." But he was.

You don't grasp it do you?
Corpse's don't talk. As long as you have the wrong definition of "dead" you will have a confused outlook on soteriology.

 

[DHK]

Their body/mind converse witht he Lord, their souls/spirit had died to God, even they knew "something: had happened, by them NOW being afraid of God!

You are right. They knew something had happened, and therefore were afraid. They had sinned. Their sin had separated them from God (which is the definition of death). Death is separation. They were no longer in fellowship with God. Previously God had been walking with them in the cool of the evening. That close fellowship was no longer there. Now God was seeking them out, trying to bring them to a place of repentance and reconciliation. Finally, in Gen.3:21, we see that the Lord sacrifices an animal (not because they were cold), but because blood had to be shed to cover their sins; to bring them back into fellowship with God. Sin had separated them from God; a sacrifice (shed blood) had reconciled them.
There was spiritual death (separation); there was reconciliation (a sacrifice).

 

[preacher4truth]

You don't grasp it do you?
Corpse's don't talk. As long as you have the wrong definition of "dead" you will have a confused outlook on soteriology.

That would explain your confusion, not mine.

Just how bad off were you, DHK?

Nothing in my soteriology is confused.

You're not getting what happened to mankind.

 

[preacher4truth]

Their body/mind converse witht he Lord, their souls/spirit had died to God, even they knew "something: had happened, by them NOW being afraid of God!

What he is implying is that pretty much not much happened, it wasn't that serious, and a spiritual band-aid was needed.

The world inflicted by sin, filled with those who are spiritually dead? Not really that big of a deal. They are not that bad off. They can commune with God at will at any moment, just like Adam did. (Which is not what he did at all btw.)

I believe its way deeper than that. Consider Romans, Pauls magnus opus, for instance. And those who were spiritually dead, thet He made alive in Ephesians.

Satan wanted Adam and Eve to believe they wouldn't die. An upgrade in that would be to allow them to think though they are spiritually dead, it's no big deal, they're really not "dead."

I don't buy that for a second.

 

[DHK]

That would explain your confusion, not mine.

Just how bad off were you, DHK?

Nothing in my soteriology is confused.

You're not getting what happened to mankind.

When Adam talked with God, was he a dead corpse? Yes or no?

 

[DHK]

it's no big deal, they're really not "dead."

I don't buy that for a second.

Of course they were dead. But if you don't know the meaning of the word, then you wouldn't know what is being talked about would you?

 

[preacher4truth]

Of course they were dead. But if you don't know the meaning of the word, then you wouldn't know what is being talked about would you?

I absolutely know the meaning of the word. In fact, I gave it to you, and showed you it's meaning, which angered you DHK.

You gave an implication, I gave the definition, and then, the proper implication.

By implication, even non-reformed theologians agree, it means totally incapable, dead. Even some of them get this right.

Of course, the Devil? He doesn't think it's a big deal, and doesn't want you to think so, either. Just kind of like a spiritual cold. "You won't surely die...you'll be like gods" i.e. capable. This is what's in the record.

Do you get it now?

 

[DHK]

I absolutely know the meaning of the word. In fact, I gave it to you, and showed you it's meaning, which angered you DHK.

Don't worry. You haven't angered me.
But you still haven't understood the meaning of the word "dead."

You gave an implication, I gave the definition, and then, the proper implication.

You can play word games all you want. If I had given an "implication" I would have used the word, but I didn't. I said what the word meant, and that is what I meant. Words have meanings, and I gave the meaning of the word. You did not accept my teaching on the word. It seems that you are unteachable.

By implication, even non-reformed theologians agree, it means totally incapable, dead. Even some of them get this right.

That is not how the Bible uses the word, and thus your confusion.

 

[DHK]

When Adam talked with God, was he a dead corpse? Yes or no?

Yes or no?