Faith Received

[DHK]

Please answer the OP. You either had your own faith, or God gave it to you. Prove by Scripture your position, or bow out if you cannot.

I answered the OP, fully. I await your answer to my post.

 

[jbh28]

Show me in the Bible where God gives faith to the unsaved. He does not.

When you say that, are you saying that faith for salvation isn't a gift of God? I would say that faith is a gift, but that at the exact same time, you are regenerate. So no person will have faith and be unregenerate just as there will be no one with out faith, but regenerate.

 

[preacher4truth]

I answered the OP, fully. I await your answer to my post.

I answered your post son. Your answer is not an answer, and in it you failed to interpret Scripture accurately.

You had your own faith, or you got it from God?

It's simple. And provide Scripture to back up your claim.

And leave out your personal insults and attack on God's grace this time, eh?

Also, you can vote publicly. Your faith or a gift. It's really simple.

 

[preacher4truth]

please quote the phrase where I said I quoted the verse for you.
I only quoted a verse. you could have just read the verse and not whined about it. you are the one that started sending me pm's complaining about it.
Well, it was a "private" message. But there is no need for it. I said it without quoting your name. It was just a verse. I was trying not to call too much attention to you personally, but you made that the case.


of course my track record says otherwise. Anyway, my last response to you about it.

you lied in PM.

Period.

Here it is:

Um, I didn't say anything directed toward you. If you feel it was, maybe you were guilty of it. You need to cool off a bit.

There's your lie.

Your track record isn't perfect, as you imply. In fact, you have lied, one thing in public, another in PM.

There goes your honor. And now? You've lied about it more than once. :wavey:

 

[jbh28]

Your track record isn't perfect, as you imply. In fact, you have lied, one thing in public, another in PM.

There goes your honor. And now? You've lied about it more than once. :wavey:

My apologies then. My intent was to say that I didn't say anything publicly directed toward you. I thought that would have been understood. That's why I didn't use your name. I thought it would be something that we all could use. I even from time to time fail to give my beliefs in a gentle spirit to those that disagree with me.

And per you pm, no I'm not going to say I "blatantly" lied when that's not what I did. If you can't understand that, I'm sorry, but that's your problem. As for me, I'm going to drop the issue.

 

[preacher4truth]

My apologies then. My intent was to say that I didn't say anything publicly directed toward you. I thought that would have been understood. That's why I didn't use your name. I thought it would be something that we all could use. I even from time to time fail to give my beliefs in a gentle spirit to those that disagree with me.

And per you pm, no I'm not going to say I "blatantly" lied when that's not what I did. If you can't understand that, I'm sorry, but that's your problem.

Why friend would you consider it understood, when you lie to me in PM, and then say the exact opposite in Public forum? You make now a pseudo apology and blame it on me in the end?

You say in PM it wasn't directed at me:

Um, I didn't say anything directed toward you. If you feel it was, maybe you were guilty of it. You need to cool off a bit.

Then say in public it was for me, but that you didn't want to call me by name in it, and now say prove where you said it? Seriously? Everyone can see it. This is Christian brotherhood and repentance and restoration, dodging and continuing to lie about it and deny? That's called a blatant lie.

If you want to call someone out, then be man enough to back it up with out being filled with cowardice and lies. Now all that you said about me lies really with you.

This makes this not an apology. You don't have it in you to do so.

Now it's your problem.

 

[DHK]

When you say that, are you saying that faith for salvation isn't a gift of God? I would say that faith is a gift, but that at the exact same time, you are regenerate. So no person will have faith and be unregenerate just as there will be no one with out faith, but regenerate.

Take faith out of the realm of the spiritual for a minute. Man exercises faith every day. When a person gets in a taxi and asks the cab driver to take him to the airport he is placing his faith in the driver that he will take him to the airport and not to the slum area of the city. He must put his faith in the word of that driver that what he said he would do he will do. That is faith. It is confidence in the word of another.

On a spiritual plane, for a saved person we see that is exactly what Abraham did:
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. (Romans 4:20-21)
--That is what faith is: confidence, being fully persuaded that what [God] has promised he will perform.

I can put that faith/confidence in a taxicab driver or God. Or I can put it in the word of any person. Did God give me the faith, the confidence, that I had in the taxicab driver? No. And, concerning salvation, he didn't give me His faith to put in Him. A person is not saved with God's faith. That would be God forcing man to be saved. Man must choose God of his own will with his own faith. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
It doesn't say: "Believe with the faith of God, on the Lord Jesus Christ." The Bible doesn't teach that.

Where does faith come from. Not directly from God.
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)
--When the unbeliever hears the Word of God, the gospel, understands it, realizes that Christ is his only hope of salvation, then having been convicted of his sin by the HS, he invites Christ to be his Savior. Faith is not blind. Faith is based on the Word of God. It is based on knowledge. It is based most of all on the resurrection, the cornerstone of our faith. Our faith is an intellectual faith; it is not blind. The Hindus believe they can wash away their sins by bathing in the "holy" waters of the Ganges River. But on what basis do they believe that? Why? For what reasons? It is a blind faith. Our faith is not blind. It is based on the resurrection, one of the most historically attested facts of history. We know what he said is true and what he did is true. Why? Because he rose from the dead and that resurrection was verified. My faith is based on those facts. It is not a blind faith. Then once I enter into a relationship with Christ, become a new creature, my faith in Him grows day by day. But my initial faith must be based on the facts of the Word of God.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.

 

[preacher4truth]

Take faith out of the realm of the spiritual for a minute. Man exercises faith every day. When a person gets in a taxi and asks the cab driver to take him to the airport he is placing his faith in the driver that he will take him to the airport and not to the slum area of the city. He must put his faith in the word of that driver that what he said he would do he will do. That is faith. It is confidence in the word of another.

On a spiritual plane, for a saved person we see that is exactly what Abraham did:
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. (Romans 4:20-21)
--That is what faith is: confidence, being fully persuaded that what [God] has promised he will perform.

I can put that faith/confidence in a taxicab driver or God. Or I can put it in the word of any person. Did God give me the faith, the confidence, that I had in the taxicab driver? No. And, concerning salvation, he didn't give me His faith to put in Him. A person is not saved with God's faith. That would be God forcing man to be saved. Man must choose God of his own will with his own faith. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
It doesn't say: "Believe with the faith of God, on the Lord Jesus Christ." The Bible doesn't teach that.

Where does faith come from. Not directly from God.
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)
--When the unbeliever hears the Word of God, the gospel, understands it, realizes that Christ is his only hope of salvation, then having been convicted of his sin by the HS, he invites Christ to be his Savior. Faith is not blind. Faith is based on the Word of God. It is based on knowledge. It is based most of all on the resurrection, the cornerstone of our faith. Our faith is an intellectual faith; it is not blind. The Hindus believe they can wash away their sins by bathing in the "holy" waters of the Ganges River. But on what basis do they believe that? Why? For what reasons? It is a blind faith. Our faith is not blind. It is based on the resurrection, one of the most historically attested facts of history. We know what he said is true and what he did is true. Why? Because he rose from the dead and that resurrection was verified. My faith is based on those facts. It is not a blind faith. Then once I enter into a relationship with Christ, become a new creature, my faith in Him grows day by day. But my initial faith must be based on the facts of the Word of God.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.

You fail to distinguish between faith unto salvation, and trust in it's general sense in the everyday world. These are two separate things.

You answered it. You had your own faith, you didn't get it from God.

That's contrary to Scripture, nothing you have, have you received on your own. There are many Scriptures showing your error here. All you did was give a parable about faith, and there is no Scriptural support for it that says "trusting in a chair" is the same as the faith He gives as a gift.

Provide Scripture to support your fabricated illustrations.

I'm glad you put your looneys and tooneys out there for all to see. Faith according to you? It's from you, not God.

Hmmmm. Go figure.

That you use man made parables as eternal truth, and believe you had your own faith that saved you, well, they go hand in hand. You believe in yourself and own abilities way too much.

And Jesus? He says without Him you can do nothing.

Wonder who is correct? Naw, Jesus is.

 

[jbh28]

Take faith out of the realm of the spiritual for a minute. Man exercises faith every day. When a person gets in a taxi and asks the cab driver to take him to the airport he is placing his faith in the driver that he will take him to the airport and not to the slum area of the city. He must put his faith in the word of that driver that what he said he would do he will do. That is faith. It is confidence in the word of another.

On a spiritual plane, for a saved person we see that is exactly what Abraham did:
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. (Romans 4:20-21)
--That is what faith is: confidence, being fully persuaded that what [God] has promised he will perform.

I can put that faith/confidence in a taxicab driver or God. Or I can put it in the word of any person. Did God give me the faith, the confidence, that I had in the taxicab driver? No. And, concerning salvation, he didn't give me His faith to put in Him. A person is not saved with God's faith. That would be God forcing man to be saved. Man must choose God of his own will with his own faith. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
It doesn't say: "Believe with the faith of God, on the Lord Jesus Christ." The Bible doesn't teach that.

Where does faith come from. Not directly from God.
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)
--When the unbeliever hears the Word of God, the gospel, understands it, realizes that Christ is his only hope of salvation, then having been convicted of his sin by the HS, he invites Christ to be his Savior. Faith is not blind. Faith is based on the Word of God. It is based on knowledge. It is based most of all on the resurrection, the cornerstone of our faith. Our faith is an intellectual faith; it is not blind. The Hindus believe they can wash away their sins by bathing in the "holy" waters of the Ganges River. But on what basis do they believe that? Why? For what reasons? It is a blind faith. Our faith is not blind. It is based on the resurrection, one of the most historically attested facts of history. We know what he said is true and what he did is true. Why? Because he rose from the dead and that resurrection was verified. My faith is based on those facts. It is not a blind faith. Then once I enter into a relationship with Christ, become a new creature, my faith in Him grows day by day. But my initial faith must be based on the facts of the Word of God.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.

The only problem I have with the story is that there is a difference between putting faith in a taxi driver and putting faith in God. I of course believe it is personal faith, but I believe that the ability to believe in God(which is what is different from the taxi driver) comes from God. Before that, I didn't want to believe in God. I was blinded by my sin.

Of course with this and many other issues, there is more to it than just believing if faith is a gift. I do believe man has his own will and faith, but that the will and his ability to believe God is given to him at salvation. Before then, he wants nothing to do with God. He is unable to understand the things of the Lord. (I cor 2:14)

 

[DHK]

The only problem I have with the story is that there is a difference between putting faith in a taxi driver and putting faith in God. I of course believe it is personal faith, but I believe that the ability to believe in God(which is what is different from the taxi driver) comes from God. Before that, I didn't want to believe in God. I was blinded by my sin.

Of course with this and many other issues, there is more to it than just believing if faith is a gift. I do believe man has his own will and faith, but that the will and his ability to believe God is given to him at salvation. Before then, he wants nothing to do with God. He is unable to understand the things of the Lord. (I cor 2:14)

There is no Scripture to say that faith is a gift given to unregenerate man. Besides it does not make sense. Then Man believes God with God's faith? What sense does that make? The Bible itself declares that faith comes from the hearing of the Word of God. The source of our faith is hearing the Word of God. It is not given as a gift. The gift of God is salvation; eternal life. (Rom.6:23; Eph.2:8,9).
The only time faith is given as a gift is when it is given to the saved as a spiritual gift or as fruit of the spirit. We all have the ability to believe. That is an ability that God gave to each and every one of us. It differentiates us from the animal kingdom. We are made in God's own image and likeness.

 

[Skandelon]

Spare me. My information is not blatantly false and was not meant nor intended to exhaustively treat all that Arminianism falsely teaches.

You seem a bit agitated brother. You don't think it is significant information to point out that true scholarly Arminians do in fact affirm that faith is from God when the very premise of your OP is to say they don't? I'd challenge you to find any scholarly non-Calvinist who believes what you have accused them of believing in your OP. I wasn't using the term "blatantly false" in a belligerent tone. I was simply attempting to say this is just misinformation. You have your facts wrong.

Nice try, but you're just bowing out and that is your out excuse.

You accuse me of making an excuse for "bowing out" of arguing against a point with which I agree? I really don't understand this reply???

 

[preacher4truth]

There is no Scripture to say that faith is a gift given to unregenerate man. Besides it does not make sense. Then Man believes God with God's faith? What sense does that make? The Bible itself declares that faith comes from the hearing of the Word of God. The source of our faith is hearing the Word of God. It is not given as a gift. The gift of God is salvation; eternal life. (Rom.6:23; Eph.2:8,9).
The only time faith is given as a gift is when it is given to the saved as a spiritual gift or as fruit of the spirit. We all have the ability to believe. That is an ability that God gave to each and every one of us. It differentiates us from the animal kingdom. We are made in God's own image and likeness.

God must fit into your finite and very limited reason? That is what you are doing in your argument.

That you say man believes with Gods Faith shows clearly you do not grasp this truth.

Only Spiritual gifts? You're wrong. It is not only given as for spiritual gifts. Open thine eyes, go grab a Timmies. And you wrongly interpret Romans 12:3. It is not referring to amount of faith, but that He measures to each person faith.

PHP 1v29...God gave them not only faith to believe in Him, but he also granted to them suffering.

He is referring to salvation not spiritual gifts. But they will also suffer.

You are yet again incorrect.

ALL the Glory goes to God alone.

He won't share it with another.

 

[preacher4truth]

You seem a bit agitated brother. You don't think it is significant information to point out that true scholarly Arminians do in fact affirm that faith is from God when the very premise of your OP is to say they don't? I'd challenge you to find any scholarly non-Calvinist who believes what you have accused them of believing in your OP. I wasn't using the term "blatantly false" in a belligerent tone. I was simply attempting to say this is just misinformation. You have your facts wrong.


You accuse me of making an excuse for "bowing out" of arguing against a point with which I agree? I really don't understand this reply???

Please. You attempted to make this as if I were giving an exhaustive analysis of each and every Arminian. Then you agitatedly label it "blatantly false." Personal attack.


Surely you know not all Armininans believe faith a gift.

You understand my reply and if you don't get it now that this doesn't address each and every arminian, then so be it. I can't help you any further.

 

[Skandelon]

Yes, I defended myself that my OP was not "blatantly false" and it is not. That's just a personal attack.

There is nothing personal about that fact. Saying that I found your information to be unpleasantly presented and misrepresentative is not a personal attack.

Neither was the OP intended to represent every degree of every Arminian.

And my charge is that it doesn't represent any degree of any true Arminian.

That's impossible. But for a large percentage, most Arminians, and likewise, don't believe God gave them faith. This is the crowd I am addressing in the OP, those that don't believe God gave them faith.

As I asked before, can you point us to one published Arminian scholar who as ever made this claim? Most non-Calvinists would say faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

 

[psalms109:31]

You're right, the "FAITH CAME BY HEARING, (not from me) and HEARING BY THE WORD OF CHRIST." Romans 10:17. Thus it (faith) came solely from Him.

John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 15:
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

Hebrews 12:
25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”[Haggai 2:6] 27 The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”[Deut. 4:24]

1 Corinthians 3:
16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

2 Corinthians 5:
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

 

[preacher4truth]

There is nothing personal about that fact. Saying that I found your information to be unpleasantly presented and misrepresentative is not a personal attack.

And my charge is that it doesn't represent any degree of any true Arminian.

As I asked before, can you point us to one published Arminian scholar who as ever made this claim? Most non-Calvinists would say faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Unpleasantly presented is mere subjectivity. I find your replies rather unpleasant. Especially your initial response.

Saying my OP is "blatantly false" uh, that's a personal attack. Prove all Arminians teach faith is a gift from God. The burden is on you, you brought it up.

One more time. "Please."

How many types and degrees of Arminians are there skandelon? 1? They all believe faith a gift? Not at all. How many skandelon?

My charge is that you are incorrect.

 

[psalms109:31]

Received

I received faith from God through His word and in Him I trust will finished in me with what He started. I will not get emotional and let men try to convince me because I trusted God to declare His work that faith came from me. I had nothing before God's word of life.

 

[preacher4truth]

I received faith from God through His word and in Him I trust will finished in me with what He started. I will not get emotional and let men try to convince me because I trusted God to declare His work that faith came from me. I had nothing before God's word of life.

Amen. Nice concise post. :thumbsup:

 

[Skandelon]

Unpleasantly presented is mere subjectivity. I find your replies rather unpleasant. Especially your initial response.

Ok. And you are allowed to express that view. Sometimes a unintended "tone" can be read into response. It becomes personal when we stop speaking about the facts/topics and about the person. My post was addressing your facts and the apparent tone of the OP and your responses to me: (i.e. "please." "Spare me." "Nice try." "I can't help you any further." etc)

Prove all Arminians teach faith is a gift from God. The burden is on you, you btought it up

Your OP made the accusation about Arminians, so the burden is on you to support your accusation.

How many types and degrees of Arminians are there skandelon? 1? They all believe faith a gift? Not at all. How many skandelon?

Zero scholars believe what you said in your OP. That is all I'm saying. If you can provide any quotes to support your accusation then your could debate that claim and any here who might support it, otherwise I think this is just a straw-man fallacy. And, no, calling you argument a "straw-man" is not personal.

My charge is that you are incorrect.

That is fine, now just back up that charge with some facts. I've provided a quote from Arminius himself debunking the concept that "Arminians don't believe faith is from God." Now, can you support your claims?

 

[psalms109:31]

I received faith from God through His word and in Him I trust will finished in me with what He started. I will not get emotional and let men try to convince me because I trusted God to declare His work that faith came from me. I had nothing before God's word of life.

How would a non-cal disagree with this statement?