Faith Received

[DHK]

Just a simple question...
IF we are born both unable to come to God in ourselves and are born spiritual dead in sins and trespasses...

Conversations are difficult to have when one is talking past another because each one has a different definition of theological terms.
First, define what you mean as: "spiritual dead." Your definition is probably different than mine.

just where did your faith actually come from as a basis then?

If your faith is different, then define "faith".

Were you "born" with it as part of being in image of God? did you 'reason" your way to receiving jesus?
Where did you get it from, and when did you?

Let me ask you? Do you love your parents? Were you born with that love?
Do you put your faith in them; your trust? Were you born with that trust?
Are you joyful? Were you born with that joy?
--And yet all of these are fruits of the Spirit. Are we not talking past each other. Unless you define what you mean by these terms meaningful conversation is hopeless.

 

[DHK]

Uh, Brother, here are some scriptures to "chew" on:

Your post emphasizes and strengthens my position.

Mark 5:25

And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,

26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,

27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.

28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.

29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.

34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

Now, "her" faith, was given by God. She could not have known that this was Jesus by merely looking at Him, and even by seeing the miracles He had performed. Many others had seen His miracles, yet still did not believe. God did this(blind their eyes), so that Jesus would be crucifed, therefore, fulfilling the scriptures concerning His death, burial, and resurrection. After Jesus died, their eyes were opened to see. But, getting back to the OP, faith is a God given gift.

This is eisigesis. You have read into the passage that which is not there. What did Jesus say:
YOUR FAITH has made you whole. Jesus did not give her faith. Your preconceived theology made you think that. You had no other choice but to read that into the passage. But it is not there.

Mark 9:17

And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;

18 And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.

19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.

20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.

21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.

22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.

23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.[/U]

24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Again it says my unbelief The belief or unbelief was his. It was not Jesus' It was his faith. In verse 23 Jesus said, "all things are possible to him that believeth, not to him that believeth with God's faith." You are reading into the passage things that are not there. The faith was the father of the son. The context makes it obvious.

Heb 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I agree. I am not speaking of Christians. My premise is that God does not give faith to the unregenerate or the unsaved. This verse is speaking of Christians.

Rom. 12:3

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Every man as every Christian. Read the context. The context is every member of the body of Christ. It is the gifts of the Spirit. Does God give gifts of the spirit to the unsaved? Are the unsaved part of the body of Christ? Please read the context before you post such a verse.

Now, the times in the bible when it says "your faith", this is our faith after God gives it to us. Not all will take advantage of it though. Those who do take advantage of this gift of faith do so according to this passage:

2 Pet. 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

Again Peter is obviously speaking to Christians, and this has nothing to do with the unsaved.

6

And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Faith gets stronger through prayer, meditation, studying, seeking His face, etc. When God showed me that I was a sinner, He gave me the faith to believe what He was saying was true, but I didn't want to be saved at that time. That faith was still there, because He called me for years, but in my rebellion, I didn't want to serve Him. When I started listening to what He was saying, and then began calling out, that faith was there, and helped me to understand what He was saying in His Word was true.

All of this is moot. It has nothing to do with salvation.

Now, here is what happens when people "squander" their gift of faith:

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

So, according to what His Word has shown me, faith comes from God....or at least that is how I see it.

Are you saying that you don't believe in the eternal security of the believer? Or what is your point. God does not give faith to the unbeliever.

 

[JesusFan]

Conversations are difficult to have when one is talking past another because each one has a different definition of theological terms.
First, define what you mean as: "spiritual dead." Your definition is probably different than mine.

that we are born with sin nature, that though we can mentally understand and grasp to a degree what is said in the Gospel, we cannot respond with faith in jesus as our natures do not allow us the freedom to do such.. We are unable to respond in and by ourselves...

If your faith is different, then define "faith".

To believe in/upon someone/thing, to give assent to it, to cling and hold onto it...

Let me ask you? Do you love your parents? Were you born with that love?
Do you put your faith in them; your trust? Were you born with that trust?
Are you joyful? Were you born with that joy?

Atheists love their family/as do some killers.....

--And yet all of these are fruits of the Spirit. Are we not talking past each other. Unless you define what you mean by these terms meaningful conversation is hopeless.

Just think here that you are trying to hard tp resist the idea that
it is in the Bible that man cannot come to God by his own merit, that unless God enables us to be able to respond with faith to the message of the Gospel... We just cant ans we wont!

 

[preacher4truth]

Just think here that you are trying to hard tp resist the idea that
it is in the Bible that man cannot come to God by his own merit, that unless God enables us to be able to respond with faith to the message of the Gospel... We just cant ans we wont!

Exactly what he is doing.

It could be one or more of the following with DHK:

1) He could be angry that God is all Sovereign and grants as He Wills to whom He wills, which is Scriptural.

2) Maybe just being stubborn.

3) Has to be right, even when he sees God's Word proves faith a gift because obviously he hates DoG, or true biblical representation of God (he's just putting a "spin" on it with this "unbeliever" part, using yet again eisegetical "analysis") It is proven in Scripture God gave us faith to believe. As a matter of fact, He enabled us with all graces. But not DHK, he did it on his own.

4) He cannot/will not give God glory. He is actually glorying in himself. Additionally, he in another thread has already knocked the grace of God in derogatory manners, calling it a "little catholic school girl named grace" and casting disdain on it saying it's only God going to Africa to save some tribe. That is how he feels about God's Grace.

5) His view of mans fall is flawed. Afterall, he believes man can change his own stripes per se, as the leopard. He's also stated this by taking a proof-text in Ezekiel out of context, and intepreting it in a humanistic light, which shows his hermenuetic to be in total bias and error. Humanism right there 100%.

6) Note that he also will not vote in the poll, but wants to blurr everything he believes, go down rabbit trails, twist and re-twist and on and on and on, post after post after post.

He could put his loonies and toonies where his mouth is, plainly and simply, and vote. There are a few options there that match his "theology" precisely.

I don't believe he can do it, or has it within him to be right out there. I feel he needs to hide behind post after post. It's pretty apparent that's what he does.

I am trying to give the benefit of the doubt with this fellow, but I don't believe my #2 here on this post to be his real issue. I think it's the others. And more.

 

[DHK]

Just think here that you are trying to hard tp resist the idea that
it is in the Bible that man cannot come to God by his own merit, that unless God enables us to be able to respond with faith to the message of the Gospel... We just cant ans we wont!

1. I have never believed that, and in fact believe it is heresy. Don't accuse me of that. Man cannot come to God on his own merit. Salvation is 100% of God and God alone.

2. Faith is not "merit." In other words faith is not a work. Almost all will agree with me here that faith cannot be defined as a work, and therefore to come to Christ by faith is not salvation by merit by works. BTW, I really resent your accusation.

3. No one here has given me one verse that says that God gives faith to the unbeliever! If you can't produce the evidence why should I believe you?

4. I have said, and Biblically so, that "Faith comes by hearing of the Word of the Word of God." I can provide Scripture for my beliefs. The Calvinist can't. But if you want to come to a compromise and say that that is ultimately the source of faith God's Word or God, then we can agree. But with that verse you cannot say that it is a gift.

5. Over and over again the Scriptures say: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Never does it say believe with God's gift of faith. So why do you add to the Word of God?

6. Let's examine Eph.2:8,9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
The subject is you. The verb is saved (salvation). The topic therefore is salvation. The core sentence is simply: "You are saved."

1. You are saved by grace. (by grace is an adverbial prepositional phrase describing how you were saved).
--Grace refers to the grace of God, specifically the grace that Christ provided on the Cross in which he atoned for all the sins of mankind. He died for you.

2. You are saved through faith. (through faith is another adverbial prepositional phrase describing the means of how you were saved).
--One is saved through faith and faith alone. Unless you put your faith in the salvation that is provided by the grace of Christ he cannot be saved. This is referring to your faith. It is not defined as God's faith, but your faith. You must put your faith in the salvation provided by the grace of God.

3. That not of yourselves. Faith is not of work, neither is there any other work that can save you. Salvation is not of our own working. It is not in ourselves to save us.

4. IT (salvation) is the gift of God. Salvation is a gift. A gift is to be received. All gifts are received by faith, not faith that is given by God, but one's own faith. When a child receives a gift from a parent, does he not have faith that his parent will give him a good gift?
Jesus uses the same illustration.

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? (Matthew 7:11)
Both saved and unsaved ask by faith, and not the faith of God. Faith is simply confidence in the word of another.

5. Salvation is not of works.
Faith is not a work. Salvation cannot be earned. It is not of works. This is the second time this is mentioned. It is for emphasis.

6. Lest any man should boast. Heaven would not be heaven if it were filled with people who would be jumping up and down boasting of how they helped Jesus get them to heaven, or how they made it there without Jesus at all.

 

[JesusFan]

Exactly what he is doing.

It could be one or more of the following with DHK:

1) He could be angry that God is all Sovereign and grants as He Wills to whom He wills, which is Scriptural.

2) Maybe just being stubborn.

3) Has to be right, even when he sees God's Word proves faith a gift because obviously he hates DoG, or true biblical representation of God (he's just putting a "spin" on it with this "unbeliever" part, using yet again eisegetical "analysis") It is proven in Scripture God gave us faith to believe. As a matter of fact, He enabled us with all graces. But not DHK, he did it on his own.

4) He cannot/will not give God glory. He is actually glorying in himself. Additionally, he in another thread has already knocked the grace of God in derogatory manners, calling it a "little catholic school girl named grace" and casting disdain on it saying it's only God going to Africa to save some tribe. That is how he feels about God's Grace.

5) His view of mans fall is flawed. Afterall, he believes man can change his own stripes per se, as the leopard. He's also stated this by taking a proof-text in Ezekiel out of context, and intepreting it in a humanistic light, which shows his hermenuetic to be in total bias and error. Humanism right there 100%.

6) Note that he also will not vote in the poll, but wants to blurr everything he believes, go down rabbit trails, twist and re-twist and on and on and on, post after post after post.

He could put his loonies and toonies where his mouth is, plainly and simply, and vote. There are a few options there that match his "theology" precisely.

I don't believe he can do it, or has it within him to be right out there. I feel he needs to hide behind post after post. It's pretty apparent that's what he does.

I am trying to give the benefit of the doubt with this fellow, but I don't believe my #2 here on this post to be his real issue. I think it's the others. And more.

Think what confuses me the most is that cannot seem to get a straight answer from those who hold to Arminian theology on this one question...

Can we actually respond infaith to receive jesus Christ when hearing the Gospel in/by ourselves, or MUST God quicken/grace us/enable us to make that decision?
That they can still hold to having free will from God to accept/reject, but can one respond to it in themselves or not?

 

[DHK]

Exactly what he is doing.

It could be one or more of the following with DHK:

1) He could be angry that God is all Sovereign and grants as He Wills to whom He wills, which is Scriptural.

2) Maybe just being stubborn.

3) Has to be right, even when he sees God's Word proves faith a gift because obviously he hates DoG, or true biblical representation of God (he's just putting a "spin" on it with this "unbeliever" part, using yet again eisegetical "analysis") It is proven in Scripture God gave us faith to believe. As a matter of fact, He enabled us with all graces. But not DHK, he did it on his own.

4) He cannot/will not give God glory. He is actually glorying in himself. Additionally, he in another thread has already knocked the grace of God in derogatory manners, calling it a "little catholic school girl named grace" and casting disdain on it saying it's only God going to Africa to save some tribe. That is how he feels about God's Grace.

5) His view of mans fall is flawed. Afterall, he believes man can change his own stripes per se, as the leopard. He's also stated this by taking a proof-text in Ezekiel out of context, and intepreting it in a humanistic light, which shows his hermenuetic to be in total bias and error. Humanism right there 100%.

6) Note that he also will not vote in the poll, but wants to blurr everything he believes, go down rabbit trails, twist and re-twist and on and on and on, post after post after post.

He could put his loonies and toonies where his mouth is, plainly and simply, and vote. There are a few options there that match his "theology" precisely.

I don't believe he can do it, or has it within him to be right out there. I feel he needs to hide behind post after post. It's pretty apparent that's what he does.

I am trying to give the benefit of the doubt with this fellow, but I don't believe my #2 here on this post to be his real issue. I think it's the others. And more.

If you can't answer a post intelligently then why do you post at all.
Perhaps it is time you stop. Stop with the insults, the rudeness, the false accusations, etc. or you will find yourself on the outside looking in. Consider this as a warning.

 

[preacher4truth]

If you can't answer a post intelligently then why do you post at all.
Perhaps it is time you stop. Stop with the insults, the rudeness, the false accusations, etc. or you will find yourself on the outside looking in. Consider this as a warning.

So you hit me again with being unintelligent? I see. Thats the only insult I see.

Nothing I've said is false that I have named you as saying.

And my 6 points to guess why you believe faith is not gifted to unbelievers are subjective and fair and are based upon things you've said.

 

[preacher4truth]

Think what confuses me the most is that cannot seem to get a straight answer from those who hold to Arminian theology on this one question...

Can we actually respond infaith to receive jesus Christ when hearing the Gospel in/by ourselves, or MUST God quicken/grace us/enable us to make that decision?
That they can still hold to having free will from God to accept/reject, but can one respond to it in themselves or not?

Yep. All I am looking for. No answer to my poll, just another personal insult naming me unintelligent. The only arminian to give a direct answer so far is skandelon.

 

[JesusFan]

Yep. All I am looking for. No answer to my poll, just another personal insult naming me unintelligent. The only arminian to give a direct answer so far is skandelon.

And unless i am reading his postings totally wrong, it would appear that he holds that God has done some type of general reconciliation thru the Cross to God and all men, so that we in ourselves can accept/reject the message of the Gospel, no need to "add" external working of additional grace, we freely accept/reject!

 

[preacher4truth]

And unless i am reading his postings totally wrong, it would appear that he holds that God has done some type of general reconciliation thru the Cross to God and all men, so that we in ourselves can accept/reject the message of the Gospel, no need to "add" external working of additional grace, we freely accept/reject!

I suppose, but I am not giving any more fodder to it. It turns emotional and personal with him, and he thinks I'm attacking him when I'm not. It's not worth it, and been enough times I've been called unintelligent.

 

[Skandelon]

Please and spare me is much better than beligerent "blatantly false."

Brother, in all sincerity, I think you misread the intent of that post. When I say "blatantly false," I mean "clearly" or "obviously" or "easy proven to be false." That is not personal, nor was it meant to carry any belligerent tone...though I, like others, did note that your tone seemed a bit harsh. My original reply was simply to show that your accusations were clearly and obvious untrue with regard to what scholarly Arminians believe and teach. I supported my claims by a direct quote from Arminius himself and then asked you to provide support for your claims. You have yet to do so.

Plus, since I am what you would call calvinistic, I have to tread a little softer than your arminian like crew, as I receive a harsher punishment than they, one with infractions, while your theological like, none, stemming from your bias, right?

We have both Calvinistic and non-Calvinistic moderators/admins. If you have a problem with the fairness by which you are being moderated you can report it to an admin. Public accusations of bias such as this are not necessary or warranted, especially considering I have not treated you unfairly in any of our dealings.

Quoting Arminius doesn't prove all Arminians believe faith a gift anymore than quoting the Remonstrance, where Tulip came in and used as a defence proves all Calvinists 5 point.

I never made that claim. My claim is that no scholarly Arminian believes what you accused of us believing in the OP, yet you made it appear that is what we all believe and then even after been shown to be in error you go on to say "most Arminians" believe that faith is not from God, which once again is "blatantly false," "clearly in error," "a misrepresentation of Arminianism," "a straw-man fallacy" etc... Ok?

 

[preacher4truth]

As with me sensing tone from you you also from me. It is difficult in typing to totally prevent this. Living close to AG headquarters and central bibe college I know many who don't believe faith a gift but call it free will then faith after salvation.

 

[DHK]

And unless i am reading his postings totally wrong, it would appear that he holds that God has done some type of general reconciliation thru the Cross to God and all men, so that we in ourselves can accept/reject the message of the Gospel, no need to "add" external working of additional grace, we freely accept/reject!

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. (John 16:8-11)

Of course there is the role of the Holy Spirit as described above. He convicts us of our sin. But we must freely choose him. Where did you learn that God forces us to be saved, and makes us his robots?

 

[Skandelon]

And unless i am reading his postings totally wrong, it would appear that he holds that God has done some type of general reconciliation thru the Cross to God and all men,

Paul said, "14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5


Compare and contrast mankind's condition/situation before and after what Paul describes in this passage.

 

[JesusFan]

Paul said, "14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5


Compare and contrast mankind's condition/situation before and after what Paul describes in this passage.

basically though, we in ourselves are STILL in the same problem ...

We are sinners, away from God, and we still need God to enable us to be able even to come to Christ and receive Him by faith!

I see those as refering to those who have and will become Chrsitians, do you see it as the general condition of all peoples after calvary then?

 

[Skandelon]

As with me sensing tone from you you also from me. It is difficult in typing to totally prevent this.

True. So, in the future, with me at least, assume the best tone possible, and I'll do the same for you... ok?

Living close to AG headquarters and central bibe college I know many who don't believe faith a gift but call it free will then faith after salvation.

As you know, this is not an AG board, so their views wouldn't likely be representative of our views on this subject. I can't imagine any theologian worth his salt who didn't affirm that all good things (including our ability to believe upon Him) come from God. Thus, I think our real point of contention centers more around the effectuality of God's calling unto salvation.

 

[quantumfaith]

1. I have never believed that, and in fact believe it is heresy. Don't accuse me of that. Man cannot come to God on his own merit. Salvation is 100% of God and God alone.

2. Faith is not "merit." In other words faith is not a work. Almost all will agree with me here that faith cannot be defined as a work, and therefore to come to Christ by faith is not salvation by merit by works. BTW, I really resent your accusation.

3. No one here has given me one verse that says that God gives faith to the unbeliever! If you can't produce the evidence why should I believe you?

Thanks, perhaps now the allegations of "you saving yourself", or "you don't believe that God is sovereign" et al. will subside.......but I think not. I understand you DHK and appreciate your "stubborness".

 

[JesusFan]

1. I have never believed that, and in fact believe it is heresy. Don't accuse me of that. Man cannot come to God on his own merit. Salvation is 100% of God and God alone.

2. Faith is not "merit." In other words faith is not a work. Almost all will agree with me here that faith cannot be defined as a work, and therefore to come to Christ by faith is not salvation by merit by works. BTW, I really resent your accusation.

3. No one here has given me one verse that says that God gives faith to the unbeliever! If you can't produce the evidence why should I believe you?

Thanks, perhaps now the allegations of "you saving yourself", or "you don't believe that God is sovereign" et al. will subside.......but I think not. I understand you DHK and appreciate your "stubborness".

As do I, its just that sometimes widh that we could agree to discuss and disagree and NOT call each other out in little snid remarks and innudos and such!
That we could all agree to discuss freely, but realise that we are talking to/with 'family of God!"

 

[Skandelon]

basically though, we in ourselves are STILL in the same problem ...

We are sinners, away from God, and we still need God to enable us to be able even to come to Christ and receive Him by faith!

In Romans 10 Paul speaks of those who haven't heard saying, "How can they believe in whom they have not heard?" In this regard, those who haven't heard the gospel can't believe the gospel. This is true of those in John 6. Israel was being blinded (hardened) from the truth (John 12:39-41), and the message hadn't even been sent to the Gentiles yet (Acts 28:28).

So, its not because they were born "totally depraved" that they can't come to Jesus. It is because they (Israel) are being hardened in their rebellion. The exception is the remnant of Israel who have been reserved from the hardening process and chosen for noble purposes (i.e. apostleship). That is why Jesus in John 6 goes on to say, "65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve."

So, the mistake Calvinists make when reading John 6 is to presume that Jesus' audience can't come to Christ because they are born Totally Depraved and non-elect, when in reality John 12:39-41 tells us exactly why they can't come:

39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 11 when he speaks of Israel being "cut off" and the Gentiles being "grafted in."