Faith vs Faith and Repentance

[Eternally Grateful]

These two contradict each other.

Yeah they do

Lazarus was PHYSICALLY dead. unable to do anything.. not even able to chose to honor his parents. or Not steal, or not commit adultry. He was able to do no good or bad.

When Lazarus was spiritually dead. He could do all those things.

So you can not compare the two.. to make them contradict is to make a false compairson

 

[Silverhair]

We understand them in light of Jesus words in John 6, John 10, and John 17. We also see them in light of Acts 2:37-39.

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

Notice how God uses his scalpel first to do the work. (cause)
Men repent and are baptized. (effect)
This is true for everyone God calls. (cause)

Sliverhair, you are shown, over and over again in scripture how God causes those He calls to be saved, yet you ignore it everytime and demand that humans do it all themselves apart from God. You tell us that God cannot...until man does.

You are wrong.

And you have shown over and over how you do not actually think the Holy Spirit knew what He meant when He said God desires all to come to repentance and trust in Him. God will save those that hear and trust the gospel message. God in His sovereignty allows man the free will to make that decision.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And you have shown over and over how you do not actually think the Holy Spirit knew what He meant when He said God desires all to come to repentance and trust in Him. God will save those that hear and trust the gospel message. God in His sovereignty allows man the free will to make that decision.

thats the issue, they can not understand as sovereign God he has the power to chose to do what he wants, even if it means giving people a choice.

 

[Silverhair]

thats the issue, they can not understand as sovereign God he has the power to chose to do what he wants, even if it means giving people a choice.

From what I have seen on here some of the "calvinists" equate sovereign with determinism. For them God has to have absolute control or He is not sovereign. Like Sproul's no rogue molecule idea. What they will not admit is that if God has to exercise that type of control/sovereignty then that also would make Him responsible for all the good but also all the bad in the world.

But this is how I see the sovereignty of God and how the bible shows His sovereignty.

Here is my view “God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, ‘What are you doing?’ Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.”

The Knowledge of the Holy: The Attributes of God A. W. Tozer

 

[Eternally Grateful]

From what I have seen on here some of the "calvinists" equate sovereign with determinism. For them God has to have absolute control or He is not sovereign. Like Sproul's no rogue molecule idea. What they will not admit is that if God has to exercise that type of control/sovereignty then that also would make Him responsible for all the good but also all the bad in the world.

But this is how I see the sovereignty of God and how the bible shows His sovereignty.

Here is my view “God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, ‘What are you doing?’ Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.”

The Knowledge of the Holy: The Attributes of God A. W. Tozer

wee see it in the beginning

1. You can eat of every tree
2. But of this tree. you shall not eat of it
3. depending on what you CHOSE. you will be rewarded by that decision.
4. if you chose to eat of the tree. dying you will die.

 

[AustinC]

From what I have seen on here some of the "calvinists" equate sovereign with determinism. For them God has to have absolute control or He is not sovereign. Like Sproul's no rogue molecule idea. What they will not admit is that if God has to exercise that type of control/sovereignty then that also would make Him responsible for all the good but also all the bad in the world.

But this is how I see the sovereignty of God and how the bible shows His sovereignty.

Here is my view “God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, ‘What are you doing?’ Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.”

The Knowledge of the Holy: The Attributes of God A. W. Tozer

Thus says the Lord:
*Habakkuk 1:5-6*
“Look among the nations, and see; wonder and be astounded. For I am doing a work in your days that you would not believe if told. For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, who march through the breadth of the earth, to seize dwellings not their own.
*Daniel 1:1-2*
In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the vessels of the house of God. And he brought them to the land of Shinar, to the house of his god, and placed the vessels in the treasury of his god.
*Job 1:8-12*
And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
*Job 2:3-6*
And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! All that a man has he will give for his life. But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face.” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.”
*Job 42:11*
Then came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house. And they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him. And each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold.

 

[37818]

Total Depravity.

I believe in a Total Depravity. As you already know, I believe it begins with the knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 3:22. The result is being, what has been named "spiritually" dead. Romans 3:11 is a result.

 

[Silverhair]

Thus says the Lord:
*Habakkuk 1:5-6*
“Look among the nations, and see; wonder and be astounded. For I am doing a work in your days that you would not believe if told. For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, who march through the breadth of the earth, to seize dwellings not their own.
*Daniel 1:1-2*
In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the vessels of the house of God. And he brought them to the land of Shinar, to the house of his god, and placed the vessels in the treasury of his god.
*Job 1:8-12*
And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
*Job 2:3-6*
And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! All that a man has he will give for his life. But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face.” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.”
*Job 42:11*
Then came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house. And they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him. And each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold.

What point are you trying make Austin? Is God sovereign of course but just not like you want Him to be.

 

[AustinC]

What point are you trying make Austin? Is God sovereign of course but just not like you want Him to be.

Do you not see the point in God's word? It is right there in each passage I quoted. You know the point, but you refuse to acknowledge, just as you refuse to answer other questions I have asked that will kick your crutch out from under your feet.

 

[Silverhair]

Do you not see the point in God's word? It is right there in each passage I quoted. You know the point, but you refuse to acknowledge, just as you refuse to answer other questions I have asked that will kick your crutch out from under your feet.

I have told you over and over that God is sovereign He is just not your version of sovereign [deterministic] You say I do not answer questions, really you run from any question that you are asked as they put the error of your calvinist view on full display.

I have asked you a number of times to answer what a verse means to you and you have yet to respond. You just run for cover as you are clearly unable to defend your errant view. As I have said before you are just a lot of huff and puff but no substance.

 

[AustinC]

I have told you over and over that God is sovereign He is just not your version of sovereign [deterministic] You say I do not answer questions, really you run from any question that you are asked as they put the error of your calvinist view on full display.

I have asked you a number of times to answer what a verse means to you and you have yet to respond. You just run for cover as you are clearly unable to defend your errant view. As I have said before you are just a lot of huff and puff but no substance.

You give lip service to the Sovereignty of God while speaking constantly of the sovereignty of man. In your mind the great determiner of destiny is man. God is defeated by man's will and though God desires all, he cannot grasp it.

Sliverhair, your god is so small and puny that no human would ever bow to your imagined creator.

 

[Alan Gross]

And because he believed,

That is saying he worked, then God saved.

Please tell me, what work am I boasting of?

 

[DaveXR650]

That is saying he worked, then God saved.

Part of what saving faith is is a renouncing of any merit or any good work that you bring to God. It's like a hand reaching out to receive what Christ has provided. That being said then, it is not fair to declare belief a work and short circuit the argument. I know a guy who told me one time "well, at least I had sense enough to believe". In that case it maybe was a work because he was declaring himself wise and bringing his good sense to the salvation process which put him on dangerous ground. But when someone just says they were saved because they believed, if they only mean that faith was what was done on their part then that should be fine.

 

[Silverhair]

Part of what saving faith is is a renouncing of any merit or any good work that you bring to God. It's like a hand reaching out to receive what Christ has provided. That being said then, it is not fair to declare belief a work and short circuit the argument. I know a guy who told me one time "well, at least I had sense enough to believe". In that case it maybe was a work because he was declaring himself wise and bringing his good sense to the salvation process which put him on dangerous ground. But when someone just says they were saved because they believed, if they only mean that faith was what was done on their part then that should be fine.

I would say that is on the same track as the bible. Ephesians 1:13

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is saying he worked, then God saved.

Nope. He did nto work at all.

He trusted in JESUS WORK

If he worked. He would have added works of the law or righteousness to the his faith and do it because he thought those works saved him

Saying my FAITH in the TOTAL work of christ is a work is nonsensical.

 

[AustinC]

Nope. He did nto work at all.

He trusted in JESUS WORK

If he worked. He would have added works of the law or righteousness to the his faith and do it because he thought those works saved him

Saying my FAITH in the TOTAL work of christ is a work is nonsensical.

In your idea of salvation it is the "TRUST" that saves you, not the "grace of God" that saves you. Therefore, since you attribute " trust" as the means of salvation, this would mean that you could stop trusting at any time and you would not be saved. Have you checked out a Nazarene church lately?

 

[Alan Gross]

Sliverhair, your god is so small and puny that no human would ever bow to your imagined creator.

That's what I don't like.

Wrong 'god'.

 

[Alan Gross]

Yeah they do

Lazarus was PHYSICALLY dead. unable to do anything.. not even able to chose to honor his parents. or Not steal, or not commit adultry. He was able to do no good or bad.

When Lazarus was spiritually dead. He could do all those things.

So you can not compare the two.. to make them contradict is to make a false compairson

Lazareth is a picture of the Spiritual. No ability, Spiritually, to choose.

Language in the Bible which seems so, is talking about Saved souls,
i.e., "choose you this day." = to the Saved.

 

[Silverhair]

Lazareth is a picture of the Spiritual. No ability, Spiritually, to choose.

Language in the Bible which seems so, is talking about Saved souls,
i.e., "choose you this day." = to the Saved.

Your reading into the text what you are looking for. That is where you fail. Jest trust in what the text in context says.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Lazareth is a picture of the Spiritual. No ability, Spiritually, to choose.

Language in the Bible which seems so, is talking about Saved souls,
i.e., "choose you this day." = to the Saved.

Choose this day..

Thats free will my friend.

Lazarus was a symbol alright. A symbol that Jesus had thr power over physical death. You can’t use it spiritually, because a spiritual dead person can still choose. Why a physically dead person can not. He has lost the ability to chose.