Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
No. This is not biblical faith whatsoever, you're incorrect.
No sir, you remain incorrect here as well. Fallacy begets fallacy.
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Faith? Where does it come from?
- Thread starter SovereignGrace
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No. This is not biblical faith whatsoever, you're incorrect.
No sir, you remain incorrect here as well. Fallacy begets fallacy.
I have to ask you. Am I wrong in understanding that, to have faith is the same as Christ in you the hope of glory? Christ = the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen- in you the hope of glory.
Now where does Christ in you come from?
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:2 KJV
that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith. YLT Gal 3:14
What did we hear?
What did you hear? Only you can answer that. I heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. What did you hear?
I don't believe so. If faith is a gift of God then so is suffering if the verse is to make sense.
There are some other translations that say: "It is your privilege not only to believe on him but to suffer for his sake."
Indeed it is a privilege to believe on Christ; a privilege to be saved; a privilege to have forgiveness of sins.
It is also a privilege to suffer for his sake. For the apostles said that they counted themselves worthy to suffer for His name.
Correct. Paul said his thorn in the flesh made God stronger in his life. That's a gift.
My MS has driven me closer to the Lord. And that is a very great gift.
I don't believe they are.
However, if you do, you must be consistent.
Either both are gifts of God's grace for the unsaved.
Or both are gifts of God's grace for the saved.
If the former, then salvation is by works and suffering is required in order to be saved.
If the latter, then I agree. God gives faith to the saved. "O Lord increase my faith."
But at least be consistent. One cannot say faith is a gift to the unregenerate while suffering is a gift to the regenerate. That position is totally inconsistent and illogical.
Here is what makes the best sense:
(GW) God has given you the privilege not only to believe in Christ but also to suffer for him.
(ISV) For you have been given the privilege for the Messiah's sake not only to believe in him but also to suffer for him.
--They are both privileges.
That the Son of God was obedient unto death even the death of the cross (Therefore, wherefore, for which cause, <pick one) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: and the promise of the Holy Spirit to be poured forth upon us.
That we received the promise of the Spirit through the faith Gal 3:14 - thereby, Christ in us. We then have faith. Mark 11:22 Have faith of God.
Did I hear the correct thing?
Faith in the sense of Salvation
Ephesians 2:8 & 9
Faith=pisteos
Thayer’s uses pistis conviction of the truth of anything, belief
Mounce states that this is firm belief
Henry=From Scripture it is clear, that whether men have been most prone to sensual or to spiritual wickedness, all men, being naturally children of disobedience, are also by nature children of wrath. What reason have sinners, then, to seek earnestly for that grace which will make them, of children of wrath, children of God and heirs of glory! God's eternal love or good-will toward his creatures, is the fountain whence all his mercies flow to us; and that love of God is great love, and that mercy is rich mercy. And every converted sinner is a saved sinner; delivered from sin and wrath. The grace that saves is the free, undeserved goodness and favour of God; and he saves, not by the works of the law, but through faith in Christ Jesus. Grace in the soul is a new life in the soul. A regenerated sinner becomes a living soul; he lives a life of holiness, being born of God: he lives, being delivered from the guilt of sin, by pardoning and justifying grace. Sinners roll themselves in the dust; sanctified souls sit in heavenly places, are raised above this world, by Christ's grace. The goodness of God in converting and saving sinners heretofore, encourages others in after-time, to hope in his grace and mercy. Our faith, our conversion, and our eternal salvation, are not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eadie=It is the uniform doctrine of the New Testament, that no man is saved against his will; and his desire to be saved is proved by his belief of the Divine testimony. Salvation by grace is not arbitrarily attached to faith by the mere sovereign dictate of the Most High, for man's willing acceptance of salvation is essential to his possession of it, and the operation of faith is just the sinner's appreciation of the Divine mercy, and his acquiescence in the goodness and wisdom of the plan of recovery, followed by a cordial appropriation of its needed and adapted blessings, or, as Augustine tersely and quaintly phrases it-Qui creavit te sine te, non salvabit te sine te. Justification by faith alone, is simply pardon enjoyed on the one condition of taking it.
Faith in the sense of Faithfulness
Galatians 5:22
Faith=pistis=faithfulness
Thayer=2. Fidelity, Fatihfulness
Mounce uses pistis as the word but uses the definition as faithfulness
Henry=faith, fidelity, justice, and honesty, in what we profess and promise to others
Eadie=πίστις—“faith” (“faythfulnes,” Tyndale, Cranmer)-not simply faith in God in the theological sense (Jerome, Theophylact),-that being implied, as the Spirit dwells only in those who have faith,-nor merely fidelity or good faith (Meyer), nor veracity (Winer); but trust generally, trustfulness toward God and towards man. Confidence in God, in all His promises, and under all His dispensations; and a spirit of unsuspicious and generous confidence towards men,-not moved by doubts and jealousies, nor conjuring
So we see in Ephesians 2:8 & 9 Faith comes for salvation, but Galatians says a part of the fruit of the Part is Faithfulness.
The Faith see in the fruit of the Spirit is not for Salvation but for our faithfulness in serving God and Trusting God in His promises. For instance Christ told the deciples that a little faith could move mountains. That is the type of Faith seen in Galatians 5:22 the Faith that God will work all things for good to them that Love Him. While saving Faith is a firm conviction in the efficacious work of Christ on the Cross. It comes when the Holy Spirit brings conviction, some respond and some reject. How do we know.
Genesis 4 and Cain, Cain believed God existed, he even offered a sacrifice. Abel not only believed God existed but Abel had placed his faith in a savior to come and gave an offering of blood to prove his Faith in the one coming. Cain was told to do good and thus follow God's command to believe and offer the proper sacrifice. We must believe that is have a firm belief in the Sacrifice of Christ and as Romans states call upon Him for that salvation and when we do we receive the fruit of the spirit which includes Faithfulness.
Ephesians 2:8 & 9
Faith=pisteos
Thayer’s uses pistis conviction of the truth of anything, belief
Mounce states that this is firm belief
Henry=From Scripture it is clear, that whether men have been most prone to sensual or to spiritual wickedness, all men, being naturally children of disobedience, are also by nature children of wrath. What reason have sinners, then, to seek earnestly for that grace which will make them, of children of wrath, children of God and heirs of glory! God's eternal love or good-will toward his creatures, is the fountain whence all his mercies flow to us; and that love of God is great love, and that mercy is rich mercy. And every converted sinner is a saved sinner; delivered from sin and wrath. The grace that saves is the free, undeserved goodness and favour of God; and he saves, not by the works of the law, but through faith in Christ Jesus. Grace in the soul is a new life in the soul. A regenerated sinner becomes a living soul; he lives a life of holiness, being born of God: he lives, being delivered from the guilt of sin, by pardoning and justifying grace. Sinners roll themselves in the dust; sanctified souls sit in heavenly places, are raised above this world, by Christ's grace. The goodness of God in converting and saving sinners heretofore, encourages others in after-time, to hope in his grace and mercy. Our faith, our conversion, and our eternal salvation, are not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eadie=It is the uniform doctrine of the New Testament, that no man is saved against his will; and his desire to be saved is proved by his belief of the Divine testimony. Salvation by grace is not arbitrarily attached to faith by the mere sovereign dictate of the Most High, for man's willing acceptance of salvation is essential to his possession of it, and the operation of faith is just the sinner's appreciation of the Divine mercy, and his acquiescence in the goodness and wisdom of the plan of recovery, followed by a cordial appropriation of its needed and adapted blessings, or, as Augustine tersely and quaintly phrases it-Qui creavit te sine te, non salvabit te sine te. Justification by faith alone, is simply pardon enjoyed on the one condition of taking it.
Faith in the sense of Faithfulness
Galatians 5:22
Faith=pistis=faithfulness
Thayer=2. Fidelity, Fatihfulness
Mounce uses pistis as the word but uses the definition as faithfulness
Henry=faith, fidelity, justice, and honesty, in what we profess and promise to others
Eadie=πίστις—“faith” (“faythfulnes,” Tyndale, Cranmer)-not simply faith in God in the theological sense (Jerome, Theophylact),-that being implied, as the Spirit dwells only in those who have faith,-nor merely fidelity or good faith (Meyer), nor veracity (Winer); but trust generally, trustfulness toward God and towards man. Confidence in God, in all His promises, and under all His dispensations; and a spirit of unsuspicious and generous confidence towards men,-not moved by doubts and jealousies, nor conjuring
So we see in Ephesians 2:8 & 9 Faith comes for salvation, but Galatians says a part of the fruit of the Part is Faithfulness.
The Faith see in the fruit of the Spirit is not for Salvation but for our faithfulness in serving God and Trusting God in His promises. For instance Christ told the deciples that a little faith could move mountains. That is the type of Faith seen in Galatians 5:22 the Faith that God will work all things for good to them that Love Him. While saving Faith is a firm conviction in the efficacious work of Christ on the Cross. It comes when the Holy Spirit brings conviction, some respond and some reject. How do we know.
Genesis 4 and Cain, Cain believed God existed, he even offered a sacrifice. Abel not only believed God existed but Abel had placed his faith in a savior to come and gave an offering of blood to prove his Faith in the one coming. Cain was told to do good and thus follow God's command to believe and offer the proper sacrifice. We must believe that is have a firm belief in the Sacrifice of Christ and as Romans states call upon Him for that salvation and when we do we receive the fruit of the spirit which includes Faithfulness.
I don't know. Is your salvation dependent on your hearing or on the Sacrifice of Christ? (I sincerely hope salvation is not dependent on good hearing as I am deaf as a post and must wear hearing aids in both ears. I would hate it if that kept me out of heaven.)
Greektim
Well-Known Member
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. Hebrews 11:4
Consider what is said concerning Jacob and Esau and let me ask:
Were Abel's action because of something that was innate or were they because God choose Abel to exhibit, the faith which was to come? That is the Christ, shedding his blood, for the ungodly.
Why did Abel do what he did and why did Cain do what he did? 1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. Who was the replacement of Abel? Gen 4:25 and Luke 3:38 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
NKJV Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; = Faith is > Hebrews 11:1
When did the substance of the hope come about? Was it not when Jesus in obedience died and was raised from the dead?
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
What does the actual Greek word mean? It is not 'privilege' and that is not the focus of what many others here have taught you. Look at the cherry-picked translations you quoted. Note both translations state (GW and ISV) it has been GIVEN:
(GW) God has given you the privilege not only to believe in Christ but also to suffer for him.
(ISV) For you have been given the privilege for the Messiah's sake not only to believe in him but also to suffer for him.
It is noted that you skipped that part in your misquote above (your first quote) in which I am replying to. That it states 'given' in those translations means it is representing the word 'granted' which is used in other translations. So, this belief, faith is given, it is something a believer formerly did not have. You skipped right past that and only saw the word 'privilege' and figured you had a ringer. You didn't and this isn't horseshoes my friend. In other words 'close don't count'. Faith, suffering, both given to believers, they are gifts of grace.
I have no problem with this position. Yes, God gives faith to the believer. It is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. I was a gift of the Spirit. The disciples prayed "Lord increase our faith."
However, there is no teaching in the Bible that states that God gives faith to the unregenerate. That is how this verse was originally being used or presented--as a proof-text that God gives faith to the unregenerate. He doesn't.
No problem. Both are given to believers; both are gifts of grace. Ergo, the verse does not teach that faith is given to the unregenerate, so don't use it as a proof-text that it does.
Nowhere does the Bible teach that God gives faith to the unregenerate. You haven't done that here, and either has any one else in any other verse. I have no problem believing God gives faith and suffering to the believers. I believe he does, but not to the unregenerate, as I have so many times stated.
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