Faith, where does it come "in" when someone is saved?

[webdog]

You may as well drop it. Nobody is going to agree with you that these terms, though related, are synonyms- nobody.

Regeneration is life.

Salvation is deliverance.

Not synonyms. Not even "nearly the same meaning".


Move on- it makes no sense to keep on this path.

...nobody but the very definition I supplied. Regeneration means (not defined as) you have eternal life. Salvation means (not defined as) you have eternal life. If you don't believe this, not much else to say.

 

[Luke2427]

.. not much else to say.

That's the best thing I've heard all night.

 

[jbh28]

Synonymous does not mean "same definitions". Above is the definition of synonymous...same meanings or perceived meanings, not same definitions.

Which would be the same thing. meaning and definition mean the same thing. Now you might be referring to that words have multiple meanings and only one definition is synonymous.

If you are justified, you have life. If you are regenerated, you are free from your sin debt.

Right, that's because they happen at the same time, not that they are the same thing.

 

[jbh28]

J was talking about definitions which is not the subject of discussion nor what defines a synonym.

Definition: a concise explanation of the meaning of a word or phrase or symbol
Simultaneous: occurring or operating at the same time
Synonymous: meaning the same or nearly the same

Regeneration means life, justification means debt free. Salvation is deliverance. Happens at the same time, doesn't have the same meaning. They are simultaneous events, not synonymous events.

 

[webdog]

Which would be the same thing. meaning and definition mean the same thing. Now you might be referring to that words have multiple meanings and only one definition is synonymous.

If I say someone is a midget or someone is a dwarf, while the definitions are different, the meaning is the same...I'm referring to a small person.

 

[webdog]

Definition: a concise explanation of the meaning of a word or phrase or symbol
Simultaneous: occurring or operating at the same time
Synonymous: meaning the same or nearly the same

Regeneration means life, justification means debt free. Salvation is deliverance. Happens at the same time, doesn't have the same meaning. They are simultaneous events, not synonymous events.

a concise explanation OF THE MEANING.

 

[jbh28]

a concise explanation OF THE MEANING.

Exactly how I have been using the term. A definition is an explanation of the meaning. Dwarf and midget can be synonymous when you use the same definition(an explanation of the meaning).

 

[kyredneck]

here is a statement from v. A. Voorhiss, assistant to r.c. Sproul confirming that some calvinists teach a person can be regenerated for years before placing faith in christ.

When the rsb speaks in the notes of john 3 of "infants being born again," it is speaking of the work of quickening god does in them which inclines their will to him. In protestantism, regeneration always precedes faith and if god quickens them, the person will surely come . . .often, regeneration and our subsequent faith happen apparently simultaneously but logically, regeneration must precede faith. an infant’s faith may not come until years after god has worked by his holy spirit to regenerate him or her. Two biblical examples of infants who were born again are seen in psalm 22:9-10 and luke 1:15.

Hooray for Voorhiss! He tells it as it is! And how it always has been!

 

[Winman]

Hooray for Voorhiss! He tells it as it is! And how it always has been!

Voorhis is in serious error. He is teaching you can have life before you believe in Jesus. This is impossible.

A person who has not believed is condemned already- John 3:18

A person who has not believed shall not see life- John 3:36

A person who has not believed shall die in their sins- John 8:24

You cannot have life until you believe. If regeneration is life, then you can not be regenerated until you believe.

 

[percho]

Faith came first then salvation.

For by grace are ye saved through faith. Faith brought salvation because of grace ie mercy of God.

Per my post no. 84 for Luke2427

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,(Eph. 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.) but according to his mercy(Eph. 2:8 For by grace) he saved us,(Eph. are ye saved) by the washing of regeneration,(Eph. through faith) and renewing of the Holy Spirit;(Eph. it is the gift of God)

 

[convicted1]

What happened with gentiles before the cross?

[edit] ...and how was it that the Jews had hope? ....in other words, 'What advantage then hath the Jew?'.

Bro KYR,

I am so sorry for taking so long to answer this question. Thanks also for taking the time to participate in this thread, and that goes to all who have taken the time to do so. I do really appreciate it!:thumbs:

Jews nowadays do not have the "advantage" they had prior to Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. Prior to Jesus' coming, you were part of the Seed of Abraham just by being born naturally. However, this was not a guarantee that they would go to heaven. Many rebelled against God and were "smoted" by Him.

Leviticus 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.

2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Joshua 7:16 So Joshua rose up early in the morning, and brought Israel by their tribes; and the tribe of Judah was taken:

17 And he brought the family of Judah; and he took the family of the Zarhites: and he brought the family of the Zarhites man by man; and Zabdi was taken:

18 And he brought his household man by man; and Achan, the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, was taken.

19And Joshua said unto Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession unto him; and tell me now what thou hast done; hide it not from me.

20 AndAchan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done:

21When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them; and, behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it.

22So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran unto the tent; and, behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it.

23And they took them out of the midst of the tent, and brought them unto Joshua, and unto all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD.

24And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor.

25And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day.And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.

26And they raised over him a great heap of stones unto this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Wherefore the name of that place was called, The valley of Achor, unto this day.

So, Bro KYR, here are two passages that shows that just being born a Jew was not a guarantee of going to heaven.

After Jesus died, was buried, and was resurrected and is now seated on the right hand of the Father in heaven, we are all(both Jew and Gentile) on the same playing field, so to speak. It is now "by grace through faith", and not by birth, as it was in the OT times. Look at where the word through is in that very verse. It is between "grace" and "faith". You can't get to "grace" without "faith".

Now, getting to the gentiles before the cross. Anyone who dies without believing, will punish in torment forever. As one who holds to freewill that probably seems strange to the DoG'ers. However, there were those who were gentiles at that time who did believe, namely Rahab the harlot, and Ruth, who married Boaz, and is the G-G grandmother of David. So the gentiles were not left off, but by them not believing, they condemned themselves. This is still going on till this day.

Rom. 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

So here is a "classic example" of Jesus stretching forth His hands to a disobedient people. So He was willing to save them if His arms were stretched forth!! I hope this is an adequate answer. With love!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

Convicted1,

In John 3 Jesus addressed Nicodemus' problem of knowing Jesus is from God, but not understanding the kingdom of God or what Jesus was doin. Jesus told Nicodemus that he needed to be born again to see and enter the kingdom. Jesus then said that it was the Spirit who did this mysteriously. In 3:8 Jesus said something like- Are you a teacher of Israel and still don't understand these things?

Either way go back and read it and see what you come up with. Even before that look at Ezekiel 36-37 where I think Jesus is drawing from. The point is that regeneration was not something that began after the ascension of Christ, but in Jesus words it seemed to be a past taught and present reality.

zrs6v4,

Are you implying that the Prophets of old had the indwelling of the Holy Ghost then as we do now? I have kinda wondered about this myself. That being said, when you gleen something from the Old Law(not Old Testament), it was from a completely different process. Each and every year, the High Priest had to make an offering to God for the sins of the people. But each year, they had to do it all over again. So, in reality, this sacrifice pushed their sins ahead year by year, and did not blot them out. When Jesus died, He made an access for the Holy Ghost to come and dwell in the children of God. Also, His blood blots out our sins.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

As for Ezekiel 36-37, I take this the same way as I do the Grace Covenant: That whosoever believeth in Him, will have eternal life. But for the Old Law, it only stayed their sins

Now, here are two translations of the first five verses of Daniel Ch. 6. One is the NIV and the other is the KJV.
NIV
Daniel 6

1 [a]It pleased Darius to appoint 120 satraps to rule throughout the kingdom, 2 with three administrators over them, one of whom was Daniel. The satraps were made accountable to them so that the king might not suffer loss. 3 Now Daniel so distinguished himself among the administrators and the satraps by his exceptional qualities that the king planned to set him over the whole kingdom. 4 At this, the administrators and the satraps tried to find grounds for charges against Daniel in his conduct of government affairs, but they were unable to do so. They could find no corruption in him, because he was trustworthy and neither corrupt nor negligent

The verse I bolded has "exceptional qualities" where the KJV has "excellent spirit". I am not saying that either is right, or either is wrong, but just showing the viewing contrasts between the two translation.
KJV
Daniel 6

1 It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

2 And over these three presidents; of whom Daniel was first: that the princes might give accounts unto them, and the king should have no damage.

3 Then this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king thought to set him over the whole realm. This verse right here made me wonder if the Prophets had the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

4 Then the presidents and princes sought to find occasion against Daniel concerning the kingdom; but they could find none occasion nor fault; forasmuch as he was faithful, neither was there any error or fault found in him.

5 Then said these men, We shall not find any occasion against this Daniel, except we find it against him concerning the law of his God.


So, I have to believe that the indwelling of the Holy Ghost came in AFTER Jesus ascended to the Father the LAST time, on the day of Pentecost. If God didn't change the Plan of Salvation when Jesus came here to earth, then why was there any need of Him coming. Something had to change, and this passage just came into my mind.

Malachi Ch. 1:

6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour?and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar;and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.

8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.

9 And now, I pray you, beseech God that he will be gracious unto us: this hath been by your means: will he regard your persons? saith the LORD of hosts.

10 Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought? neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought. I have no pleasure in you, saith the LORD of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand.

11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same [/U]my name shall be great among the Gentiles;[/U] and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

12 But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.

13 Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.

14 But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the LORD a corrupt thing: for I am a great King, saith the LORD of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.


So, according to this passage here, Israel got "slack" in their offerings unto God. If Jesus didn't change the "gameplan", there was ABSOLUTELY NO NEED OF HIS COMING HERE TO DIE FOR US!! By His death, burial, and resurrection, He made a way for us(all Gentiles) to get to the Father, and also for the Holy Ghost to dwell in the HEART of the BELIEVER!! I hope this answers this.:thumbs:

i am I am's!!

Willis