37818
Well-Known Member
So are you saying what the Son does and the Father are the same thing? John 1:3, John 5:18-18.
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Faith
- Thread starter AustinC
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I am saying that the Word spoke at creation, spoke in written form in the Bible and spoke verbally on earth in Jesus.
I am saying that the Word speaks and God's sheep hear His voice.
ad finitum
Active Member
I thought he was implying, "because God puts it (faith) there", according to Calvinist dogma. But then you disagreed by assuming he'd implied that man is faith-capable. So OK. If he meant that man must first express faith of his own, then he is right. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. God is pleased with faith. Simple. The Gospel is not complicated.
If the Gospel were complicated, only people who think they are smart could understand it.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Obedience is the nature of the New Birth. Just as a cat or dog does what they do because they are born as such. Acting saved as a condition for salvation is hypocrisy. Which is the norm in many churches.
Calvinism denies anyone is able to put their own faith in Christ. So the hidden view being asserted in this thread is "faith" cannot be "in a person" before they are enabled by Calvinism's "Irresistible Grace."
And of course, Calvinists never tire of asserting this bogus unbiblical view. According to Matthew 13, some people (Soil #1) have been hardened so they are unable to understand the gospel. But the other three types of people (Soils 2, 3 and 4) have the ability to put their faith in Christ. Paul teaches the lost cannot understand spiritual solid food but can understand and respond to spiritual milk. John says God requires that the lost put their faith in the One God has sent. And scripture, time and time again refers to "your faith" or "his faith" thus the biblical concept is we are saved through or by means of our faith, as credited by God.
John 3:16
Calvinism denies anyone is able to put their own faith in Christ. So the hidden view being asserted in this thread is "faith" cannot be "in a person" before they are enabled by Calvinism's "Irresistible Grace."
And of course, Calvinists never tire of asserting this bogus unbiblical view. According to Matthew 13, some people (Soil #1) have been hardened so they are unable to understand the gospel. But the other three types of people (Soils 2, 3 and 4) have the ability to put their faith in Christ. Paul teaches the lost cannot understand spiritual solid food but can understand and respond to spiritual milk. John says God requires that the lost put their faith in the One God has sent. And scripture, time and time again refers to "your faith" or "his faith" thus the biblical concept is we are saved through or by means of our faith, as credited by God.
John 3:16
And of course, Calvinists never tire of asserting this bogus unbiblical view. According to Matthew 13, some people (Soil #1) have been hardened so they are unable to understand the gospel. But the other three types of people (Soils 2, 3 and 4) have the ability to put their faith in Christ. Paul teaches the lost cannot understand spiritual solid food but can understand and respond to spiritual milk. John says God requires that the lost put their faith in the One God has sent. And scripture, time and time again refers to "your faith" or "his faith" thus the biblical concept is we are saved through or by means of our faith, as credited by God.
John 3:16
Calvinism denies anyone is able to put their own faith in Christ. So the hidden view being asserted in this thread is "faith" cannot be "in a person" before they are enabled by Calvinism's "Irresistible Grace."
And of course, Calvinists never tire of asserting this bogus unbiblical view. According to Matthew 13, some people (Soil #1) have been hardened so they are unable to understand the gospel. But the other three types of people (Soils 2, 3 and 4) have the ability to put their faith in Christ. Paul teaches the lost cannot understand spiritual solid food but can understand and respond to spiritual milk. John says God requires that the lost put their faith in the One God has sent. And scripture, time and time again refers to "your faith" or "his faith" thus the biblical concept is we are saved through or by means of our faith, as credited by God.
John 3:16
Calvinism denies anyone is able to put their own faith in Christ. So the hidden view being asserted in this thread is "faith" cannot be "in a person" before they are enabled by Calvinism's "Irresistible Grace."
And of course, Calvinists never tire of asserting this bogus unbiblical view. According to Matthew 13, some people (Soil #1) have been hardened so they are unable to understand the gospel. But the other three types of people (Soils 2, 3 and 4) have the ability to put their faith in Christ. Paul teaches the lost cannot understand spiritual solid food but can understand and respond to spiritual milk. John says God requires that the lost put their faith in the One God has sent. And scripture, time and time again refers to "your faith" or "his faith" thus the biblical concept is we are saved through or by means of our faith, as credited by God.
John 3:16
Titus Tarnum
Member
Mark 4:20 also explains the parable of the sower and only says one of the soils was good. You can throw tons of seed on the path and you'll just be feeding the birds[emoji3]
Throwing seed on the rocks isn't much better and the rocks there were pulled from the good ground and thrown to the outskirts of the field were its not intended to harvest anything if this is talking about someone's farmland... you wouldn't waste your time trying to glean the weedy edges of the field either.
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Titus Tarnum
Member
I came to this forum a couple months ago to see what arguments transposed in the debate.
It amazes me that this argument has been going on for hundreds of years. The first thing I do is ask myself about God's sovereignty, "does God know what I'm going to do next? Did God know I was going to choose him?" Is there any believer that thinks that they surprise God with their faith to follow him? Don't get confused, Christ in human form may have been amazed by someone's faith but Christ wasn't omnipotent or fully omniscient on earth. The question still stands, did God know I was going to choose him and when did he know? Did he know before the foundation of the world before Adam and Eve were born? That kind of knowledge just amazes me and I can't fully comprehend it, but the opposite of that would be God didn't know and I can't see that as feasible. If God's omniscience isn't in question how do people question God's sovereignty in salvation?
That would mean that all of my relatives all the way back to Adam had to be known of God and there was nothing anyone could do to stop me from being born, the alternative is that God didn't know I was going to be born… so all of the sin and all the choices that people made in their lives didn't stop me from being born if that's the case all of my sins and all of my choices couldn't stop me from being saved if God always knew that I would be.
The fact is God knew who would and who wouldn't be saved and there's a fine line there. If God chose who wouldn't be saved then God doesn't love everybody. Does God want everyone to come to a knowledge of him and to be saved; how could he if he chose some people not others to be saved?
Both sides seek to understand why some people aren't saved and others are. The freewheel side answer is pretty clear; God gave them the option and they chose. The Calvinist side seems to be clear and say God only chose some and not others and personal choice has nothing to do with it.
I have always said that it doesn't matter what you believe the same amount of people are getting saved whether you believe in freewill or God sovereignty, not a single persons salvation depends upon your opinion, if you think it does how can you? How can you believe that God would put my salvation in your hands, or your salvation in my hands?
That's why people say, everyone is given a choice to believe and as long as they're alive Grace is available, but then I look back at time and think you literally are believing in a fairytale, freewheel requires everyone to have a choice, so you have to believe that everyone throughout humanity has been given a choice that is something equivalent to the gospel, meaning the gospel has been preached always and Christ coming was something that should've been expected by everyone. That is has to be a lie of the devil to make people complacent.
I came to the conclusion that God loves everybody, but at one point he's not going to love you when your sin makes you something that's not a creation of his anymore and you are a child of the devil.
God loves everyone until he doesn't.
whatever you believe you have to believe that God created humanity always knowing that some of us would fail and that had to be considered an acceptable loss to him, otherwise he wouldn't of created. From a human point of view if I knew I was going to have ten kids and I knew eight of them were going to go to hell I would consider not having kids....evidently God's reasoning is above me (go ahead, I have a premonition someone is going to pounce on that one[emoji3])
I don't believe this will change anybody's opinion, but I'm just getting it off my chest. I think I'm going to be one of those people, one of those many people who have just faded out of view in this forum, but thanks for the information. Many if not all of your hearts are in the right place and I wish I could know you better[emoji3]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As a youth, I did a little gardening. Some of the soil I worked in was sandy and soft and would grow what was planted. Other soil, was hard and had to be tilled and enriched with planters mix. But unless the soil had been contaminated, it would provide a yeild.
One day I turned a spade and found a bunch of earthworms. My grandfather asked me, is the soil good because of the earthworm, or are the earthworms present because the soil is good?
One last point, the use of an attribute of God to nullify verse after verse. For example, God is love so some claim God would not send people into torment.
God is all knowing until He is not.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
i.e. those who are yielded to whatever God has to say, not some mystical group. You're reading of God through the Calvinist, not scriptural, lens. No one was of God while being out of Christ and in Adam.
When Cornelius called on Peter, he was of God because he was walking by the light he had, but he wasn't regenerated yet. And sure enough, he believed God's words at Peter's mouth...because Cornelius was of God in the sense that he was A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway, not in the sense that he mystically in Christ from eternity past and elected by a mysterious unconditional decree based on an unknow criterion.
See how one side is scripture and the other a philosophy that simply uses correlative scripture to its system?
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We were always known by God to be among those who were to get saved!
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Well of course (1Pe.1:2), no one denies that. God knows all the details of all the futures. No argument here.
37818
Well-Known Member
John 8:43-51, ". . . Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death [into the age to come]. . . ."
Also John 10:26-30. To whom Jesus spoke.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I disagree, George.
I was never "fitted" with Calvinist lenses...
In fact,
I once once believed as you do and was raised in Independent Baptist circles for much of my life.
It's called "election", George,
and God had a people marked out ( Romans 8:29-30 ) to be given to His Son ( John 6:39, John 6:65, John 17:2 ) from before the foundation of the world.
That is when they were chosen "in Him" ( Ephesians 1:4 )...
Before the foundation of the world.
Again I disagree.
I don't see Scripture anywhere stating that those who come to Christ "walk by the light that they have".
Rather, I clearly see Scripture teaching that all men are walking in darkness ( Romans 1:18-32, Ephesians 4:17-19 ) unless the Lord calls them out of it ( 1 Peter 2:9 ) and into the light of His grace and mercy.
In other words,
When He calls, His elect come to Him because they know and hear His voice:
" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 )
" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand." ( John 10:26-29 ).
Also,
I've emphasized the pronouns so the reader can see just who it is that Christ knows, who has eternal life, who shall never perish, who were given to Christ by the Father, and who shall never be plucked out of His hand.
Lastly,
The reason that people do not believe is found in John 10:26.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I respect that you understand it that way, but I do not.
Rather, I see that Cornelius was "of God" in the John 8:43-47 and John 10:26-29 sense,
and that when he heard the word of God being spoken by Peter,
he believed because it was given to him to do so ( Philippians 1:29 ), just as Paul told the Philippians.
Like Lydia ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ), God opened His heart first ( when, I do not know but it was before he believed ),
and then Cornelius later "attended to" the words that were spoken to him by Peter.
See how a person who is spiritually dead in their affections towards God and His ways,
( dead in trespasses and sins Ephesians 2:1-4 ) is given the light of truth by the Lord,
who graciously makes a previously "dead" person alive towards Him?
George, it's right on the page and yet it seems to escape you.
That said,
I find it amazing that He condescends to such things,
given the fact that in my opinion, he should have simply scrapped the whole lot of us and started over.
But then we would not have needed a Saviour, and He would not have received what Luke 7:40-43 spells out for us...
That he who is forgiven much, will love Him much.
God gets all the glory, and He's orchestrated it to result in such a thing from His saints.
We know that, given the "chance", we would have botched it exactly as Israel did, unless He changed our hearts first.
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