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Faith

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AustinC

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ivdavid said:
Whoa, isn't that too quick to declare another interpretation in a debate forum as cursed? What do you understand by one having their own faith? One acknowledging out of full persuasion that they can do nothing to save themselves and that only Christ must work out everything in them unto righteousness and salvation as He's promised in His Gospel - isn't that faith in Christ? How would anyone practicing this amount to works when actually it would amount to self-denial and trusting in another's working in them?

You could very well make the argument that a hardened heart and a blinded mind could never incline itself to so believe at any time of their own doing - and you'd be right there. And one could further even argue that God, by changing their heart and enlightening them, enabled even non-elect flesh to receive the knowledge of the truth which in turn enabled them to believe for a while. But when proved, they fall away from the faith while the elect are still preserved by God continuing to cause them to believe in Christ.

Faith itself can never amount to works, whether when generated by the Spirit or the flesh - for by definition faith is looking to another's works to the exclusion of any self-works - the focus being on the other's works to amount to righteousness given that the self has none. But if one considers such a looking to another's works itself as his own righteousness, then he's just missed the entire point of faith and shall not find redemption. For even such knowledge of his own inability was granted by God changing hearts in the first place. Woe to those who return to the mud after being washed...
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Faith does the works God ordained for us to do. Ephesians 2:10 and James 2:18.
Faith is an effect of God's gracious salvation.
 
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ivdavid

Active Member
AustinC said:
Faith does the works God ordained for us to do. Ephesians 2:10 and James 2:18.
Faith is an effect of God's gracious salvation.
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Completely in agreement concerning God's working in the elect. But there is also faith that falls away after a while - hence obviously not of God. Hence that proving even the non-elect can believe for a while (subsequent to God changing hearts etc. but without it being worked out by God in them). Why do you find it difficult to concede this concerning the non-elect when it doesn't take away anything from what you believe about the elect? Why do you see this as an all-or-nothing or an exclusive salvation? God does desire for even those who reject Him to be saved until He turns in His wrath right?
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
ivdavid said:
Right. And I thought I just did that by quoting Matt 23:37 and you again kept asking "which verse states that" - so had me confused.

Lamenting is some variant of expressing grief. Jesus weeps over Jerusalem (Luk 19:41). In Matt 23:37 Jesus equates His grief as comparable to a hen willing to gather her chickens under her wings but they refusing it. What are they refusing here - to believe in Jesus as the Messiah, the very Gospel come to them first. Hence, Jesus laments Israel's unbelief and later through the apostles takes it to the Gentiles.

It feels weird having to spell all this out - what did you yourself understand by all this so far?
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No you didnt do just that. I dont even see how its related to faith at all, not the Faith which is the Gift of God.
 
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