Faith

[MB]

ok, you dead wrong

How is it he is wrong? try proving that with scripture alone.
MB

 

[AustinC]

I agree that we are saved by grace through faith. Itis only logical grace comes through faith because the Bible says so.
MB

We are saved by grace. 2x Paul tells us this fact. Through faith is not a prerequisite, it is an effect of being saved by grace.

It saddens me when you and others teach that faith is the cause and grace is the effect.

 

[MB]

We are saved by grace. 2x Paul tells us this fact. Through faith is not a prerequisite, it is an effect of being saved by grace.

It saddens me when you and others teach that faith is the cause and grace is the effect.

You are just wrong and have been ever since you came here.You are unable to read scripture with any comprehension at all.
MB

 

[Gary Anderson]

Faith comes from above. Peter said it is obtained. God grants repentance. 2 Tim 2:25. Therefore, repentance and faith are gifts of grace, not preexisting.

There are now many threads on this subject here at the BB, Austin, and it's been hashed out on many occasions....
But I'll post a few replies for those who may be new to this forum or haven't seen those many threads about faith and where it comes from as yet.

The only thing that I can do given where I am in my understanding of the Scriptures,
is to say that the person who posted that ( most probably unintentionally ) is making God's grace dependent upon something that man has or does;
Which makes God a respecter of persons, in that God would then respect what that person did or possessed in order to grant them His grace.

In business circles, we would say that if someone offers us a deal, then in order to "seal the deal" ( or complete the exchange ) one has to take advantage of it...
and we are then rewarded according to our efforts or assent as part of the agreement.
It's no different with any other offer, salvation or otherwise...
If it has to rely on something from the other end, then it's a reward, not a gift.

However...
With a promise ( not an offer ), it comes with no strings attached.
The person receiving it would not have to do anything to possess it, except to passively receive it.

Furthermore,
Romans 11:7-8 tells us that if we as men mix our works with God's grace, then it is no more grace...
But instead, it is works.

I'll say it again so that I make myself clear...

If salvation were a cooperative effort between God and men,
then it's a market deal instead of a gift, as the Scriptures so plainly declare in Romans 6:23.
Market deals are based on merit and de-merit...
Profit and loss, etc.


Not on goodwill, and not on love.

 

[AustinC]

Who says faith with regard to Salvation is a gift? Nowhere in the Bible, that's for sure.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Hebrews 12:2
Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[AustinC]

He didn't keep Judas did He
MB

He tells us clearly that Judas was chosen to betray him.
God is sovereign and does as he wills.
Do you wish you were one whom God chose for destruction? I doubt it.
Anymore complaints about God you want to toss out?

 

[ad finitum]

We are saved by grace. 2x Paul tells us this fact. Through faith is not a prerequisite, it is an effect of being saved by grace.

It saddens me when you and others teach that faith is the cause and grace is the effect.

The Grace is that we are saved through faith rather than by works. Even the simplest person can see that, EVEN IN ENGLISH. All God asks of us is faith. How people make this so twisty and over-complicated is no mystery. It is Satanic.

Earth to Calvinists: Faith is not work. By God's grace, salvation is through faith. Our faith. Faith is our part. It's not hard. It's not work. Faith requires exactly zero calories to accomplish.

Calvinist proof-texting and twisting of the scriptures is against the grammar, logic and common sense.

Be sad for yourself. Turn around. Change your mind. If you do, perhaps God will grant your repentance (2 Timothy 2:25).

 

[AustinC]

I agree that we are saved by grace through faith. Itis only logical grace comes through faith because the Bible says so.
MB

It doesn't say "grace comes through faith."

We are "Saved by grace." and then, after Paul tells us we are also seated in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus, he adds "Saved by grace, through faith, not of your own lest you should boast, it is the gift of God "

Faith never is a cause of grace. Grace is what causes faith. Faith is the effect of God's grace. It can be no other way and certainly the Bible always expresses that faith is the effect of Grace... otherwise Jesus would not be the author and finisher of faith.

 

[AustinC]

The Grace is that we are saved through faith rather than by works. Even the simplest person can see that, EVEN IN ENGLISH. All God asks of us is faith. How people make this so twisty and over-complicated is no mystery. It is Satanic.

Earth to Calvinists: Faith is not work. By God's grace, salvation is through faith. Our faith. Faith is our part. It's not hard. It's not work. Faith requires exactly zero calories to accomplish.

Calvinist proof-texting and twisting of the scriptures is against the grammar, logic and common sense.

Be sad for yourself. Turn around. Change your mind. If you do, perhaps God will grant your repentance (2 Timothy 2:25).

I bolded your false statement, which if it were true would make salvation merited by your act of faith, not by God's gracious choice alone.
Therefore, you teach a false gospel of works, which is anathema to God and the church.

You imagine that God cannot save a person unless the person cooperates with God in a synergistic dance. Newsflash...you are wrong and your teaching spits on God and his grace apart from your efforts. The most obvious example of God saving without a person's cooperation is the conversion of Saul on the Damascus road.

Why do you attempt to drag God down and lift yourself up? Your teaching is anathema to God and His holy word.

 

[ivdavid]

Im asking what verse states that !

Demanding prooftexts doesn't persuade anyone or move any discussion along, right? What verse states "Jesus is God" or some variant of the Holy Trinity - where does that leave us really?

 

[ad finitum]

I bolded your false statement, which if it were true would make salvation merited by your act of faith,

Since salvation is not of works, faith is not a work.

 

[ivdavid]

I bolded your false statement, which if it were true would make salvation merited by your act of faith, not by God's gracious choice alone.
Therefore, you teach a false gospel of works, which is anathema to God and the church.

Whoa, isn't that too quick to declare another interpretation in a debate forum as cursed? What do you understand by one having their own faith? One acknowledging out of full persuasion that they can do nothing to save themselves and that only Christ must work out everything in them unto righteousness and salvation as He's promised in His Gospel - isn't that faith in Christ? How would anyone practicing this amount to works when actually it would amount to self-denial and trusting in another's working in them?

You could very well make the argument that a hardened heart and a blinded mind could never incline itself to so believe at any time of their own doing - and you'd be right there. And one could further even argue that God, by changing their heart and enlightening them, enabled even non-elect flesh to receive the knowledge of the truth which in turn enabled them to believe for a while. But when proved, they fall away from the faith while the elect are still preserved by God continuing to cause them to believe in Christ.

Faith itself can never amount to works, whether when generated by the Spirit or the flesh - for by definition faith is looking to another's works to the exclusion of any self-works - the focus being on the other's works to amount to righteousness given that the self has none. But if one considers such a looking to another's works itself as his own righteousness, then he's just missed the entire point of faith and shall not find redemption. For even such knowledge of his own inability was granted by God changing hearts in the first place. Woe to those who return to the mud after being washed...

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner thjan 630 am EDT / 330 am PDT

 

[Brightfame52]

Who says faith with regard to Salvation is a gift? Nowhere in the Bible, that's for sure.

Sure its in the bible, you just cant see it.

 

[Brightfame52]

Full unbelief? No. Prodigal life, yes, yet they will return to the Father because Jesus tells us that he keeps all whom the Father gives him.

Those who God gives faith, they will believe unto everlasting life, as in Pauls example, pattern 1 Tim 1:16

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

 

[Brightfame52]

He didn't keep Judas did He
MB

Judas was a reprobate child of the devil ! He was an exception to the true disciples !

 

[Brightfame52]

How is it he is wrong? try proving that with scripture alone.
MB

Its been proven with scripture, that doesnt change a persons wrong opinion !

 

[Brightfame52]

Demanding prooftexts doesn't persuade anyone or move any discussion along, right? What verse states "Jesus is God" or some variant of the Holy Trinity - where does that leave us really?

If you dont have a verse, then with skill you need to show it in principle in scripture, thats just as valid !

 

[AustinC]

Since salvation is not of works, faith is not a work.

Faith is a gift from God. It is an effect of God's gracious salvation.
The gift of faith does good works.

 

[ivdavid]

If you dont have a verse, then with skill you need to show it in principle in scripture, thats just as valid !

Right. And I thought I just did that by quoting Matt 23:37 and you again kept asking "which verse states that" - so had me confused.

Lamenting is some variant of expressing grief. Jesus weeps over Jerusalem (Luk 19:41). In Matt 23:37 Jesus equates His grief as comparable to a hen willing to gather her chickens under her wings but they refusing it. What are they refusing here - to believe in Jesus as the Messiah, the very Gospel come to them first. Hence, Jesus laments Israel's unbelief and later through the apostles takes it to the Gentiles.

It feels weird having to spell all this out - what did you yourself understand by all this so far?