Fake Eschatology, continued from previous thread

[robycop3]

Let's talk about the goofy idea that Christ is coming back to a temple built with hands, to reward His disciples with a temporal kingdom wherein the flinging of the blood of animals is acceptable worship.

Jesus will 'touch down" on the Mt. of Olives when He returns, & that hill will split in two.

 

[37818]

No, not ad hominem, but deluded;
Definition of deluded: deceived by false beliefs,
1. To cause to hold a false belief; deceive thoroughly: To elude or evade.

You evade by fragmenting the first two verses, hoping to avoid the obvious.

It is fair to say whoever is holding onto false beliefs are deluded not knowing those false beliefs are truly false.

 

[37818]

Matthew, Mark and Luke,

Three different questions asked by Jesus' disciples.

Matthew 24:3,
". . . And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?
". . .and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Mark 13:3-4,
". . .And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be?
". . . and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"

Luke 21:7,
". . . And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be?
". . . and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?"

Those three questions are what Jesus' disciples asked.

 

[rockytopva]

If we are coming back with Jesus to reign a thousand years how could we do so if we do not rise first to meet him in the air? In which the dead in Christ will rise first? And such events happen as a thief in the night?

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and ahall reign with him a thousand years. - Revelation 20

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thessalonians 2

 

[37818]

. . . end of the age?'

In the KJV αιωνος is translated "world" in some 40 verses. And is not the same meaning as κοσμος also translated "world."

 

[Iconoclast]

In the KJV αιωνος is translated "world" in some 40 verses. And is not the same meaning as κοσμος also translated "world."

Preceptaustin;

Matthew 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?": Kathemenou (PMPMSG) de autou epi tou Horous ton Elaion proselthon (3PAAI) auto oi mathetai kat idian legontes (PAPMPN) Eipe (2SAAM) hemin pote tauta estai (3SFMI) kai ti to semeion tes ses parousias kai sunteleias tou aionos:

1) When will these things happen?

(2a) What will be the sign of Your coming?

(2b) What will be the sign of the End of the Age?

Parallel passages - Matthew 24:3; Mark 13:3-4; Luke 21:7 (Remember that to best understand Matthew 24-25, it is important to study the related passages in Mark and Luke).

When will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age? - This is two questions with the second question having two components (some interpret it three questions - Walvoord, Fruchtenbaum - see below).

Fruchtenbaum comments that "All together, three questions were asked which, at the same time, included requests for three signs." (Ibid) He explains that in the Luke passage the disciples asked not only when (just as in Matthew) but what is the sign that will identify that these things are about to take place. Matthew asks only when but do not mention a sign.

Thomas Constable on the other hand comments that "The disciples asked Jesus two questions. The first was, "When will these things be?" The second question had two parts as is clear from the Greek construction of the sentence. It linked two nouns, "coming" (parousia) and "end" (sunteleia), with a single article, "the" (Gr. to), and the conjunction "and" (Gr. kai). What will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?" (Matthew 24 Commentary)

Blomberg agrees that "By not repeating the definite article ("the") before "end of the age," Matthew's rendering of Jesus' words is most likely linking the coming of Christ and the end of the age together as one event (Granville Sharp's rule)." (NAC - Matthew)

What is the significance of the fact that there is only one article governing the coming and the consummation (end)? This suggests that the disciples viewed the coming and the consummation as two events which were distinct, but closely connected. This will be discussed more fully below.
THE SIGN OF THE END
OF THE AGE

The end of the age - Notice that KJV translates it as "the end of the world" but that is not an accurate translation for Matthew uses aion (age) not kosmos (world).

Fruchtenbaum explains that the disciples "asked for a third sign, and that was: "What will be the sign that the end of this age has begun?" In rabbinic theology of that day, the rabbis spoke of two ages: this age, in which we now live; and the age to come, the Messianic Age. The question is: "What is the sign that the last days of this age have begun and that will lead to the Messianic Age? All together, then, there were three questions in which the disciples asked for three signs to watch for (Ed: See Table below). Jesus answered these questions, but not in the same order as they were asked. He answered the third question first, the first question second, and the second question third. Nor are all three answers found in all three accounts. While Matthew and Mark recorded the answers to the second and third questions, they ignored the answer to the first question. It is Luke who recorded the Messiah's answer to the first question." (The Footsteps of the Messiah- A Study of the Sequence of Prophetic Events)

Thomas Constable agrees that "By asking the question this way clearly the disciples believed that Jesus' coming (prophesied in Mt 23:39) would end the present age and introduce the Messianic Age." (Matthew 24 Commentary)

In summary, by linking Jesus coming with the end the disciples probably believed that Jesus' coming would end the present age and bring in the Messianic Age.

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2:
The end of the age - KJV has "end of the world" but as Vincent says it is more correctly a reference to "the existing, current age," not to "the end of all time." So Jesus is not referring to the end of the world but the end of the age. The definite article is present signifying the specific age they were living in at the time. It is the same age we are living in today. The next age is the Messianic Age which of course identifies me as one who takes Scripture literally and believes in a coming time when Messiah rules and reigns on earth. The Messianic age will be followed by the next "age" of the New Heaven and New Earth.

The End (Consummation) (4930)(sunteleia from sun = together or an intensifier + teleo = to finish) describes the bringing of something to a successful finish. In a word the noun sunteleia means completion, conclusion, close, end, consummation. It is used 5 times by Jesus Himself in the phrase the "end of the age." (Mt 13:39, 40, 49, 24:3, 28:20). The only other NT use is by the writer of Hebrews who describes "the consummation of the ages." (Heb 9:26).

Of the Age (165)(aion) usually refers to some aspect of time past, present or future depending on the context: (1) as a segment of contemporary time = lifetime (1Ti 6:17), present age (Lk 16.8, 20:34 = "sons of this age", 1Cor 3:18, 1Cor 1:20, Titus 2:12 = "live....godly in this present age;" Mt 12:32, Mt 13:22 = "cares of this present age" = also in Mk 4:19; 2Ti 4:8 and Ro 12:2 = "this world" = this present age and its ungodly thoughts and actions; 2Cor 4:4 = "god of this world" = of this present age; The end of this period = Mt 13:39-40, 49, Mt 24:3, 28:20); (2) of time gone by past, earliest times (Lk 1.70); (3) of prolonged and unlimited time = eternity (1Ti 1.17); (4) of time to come eternity = age to come (Lk 20.35, BDAG says "the age to come" corresponds to "the Messianic period"); idiomatically (with preposition eis = into) literally into the age = forever, eternally (JN 6.51); In another idiom aion means literally into the ages of the ages = forever and ever, forevermore (Heb 1.8); (5) plural, as a spatial concept, of the creation as having a beginning and moving forward through long but limited time = universe, world (Heb 1.2; 9.26; 11.3)

 

[robycop3]

Preceptaustin;

Matthew 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?": Kathemenou (PMPMSG) de autou epi tou Horous ton Elaion proselthon (3PAAI) auto oi mathetai kat idian legontes (PAPMPN) Eipe (2SAAM) hemin pote tauta estai (3SFMI) kai ti to semeion tes ses parousias kai sunteleias tou aionos:

1) When will these things happen?

(2a) What will be the sign of Your coming?

(2b) What will be the sign of the End of the Age?

Parallel passages - Matthew 24:3; Mark 13:3-4; Luke 21:7 (Remember that to best understand Matthew 24-25, it is important to study the related passages in Mark and Luke).

When will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age? - This is two questions with the second question having two components (some interpret it three questions - Walvoord, Fruchtenbaum - see below).

Fruchtenbaum comments that "All together, three questions were asked which, at the same time, included requests for three signs." (Ibid) He explains that in the Luke passage the disciples asked not only when (just as in Matthew) but what is the sign that will identify that these things are about to take place. Matthew asks only when but do not mention a sign.

Thomas Constable on the other hand comments that "The disciples asked Jesus two questions. The first was, "When will these things be?" The second question had two parts as is clear from the Greek construction of the sentence. It linked two nouns, "coming" (parousia) and "end" (sunteleia), with a single article, "the" (Gr. to), and the conjunction "and" (Gr. kai). What will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?" (Matthew 24 Commentary)

Blomberg agrees that "By not repeating the definite article ("the") before "end of the age," Matthew's rendering of Jesus' words is most likely linking the coming of Christ and the end of the age together as one event (Granville Sharp's rule)." (NAC - Matthew)

What is the significance of the fact that there is only one article governing the coming and the consummation (end)? This suggests that the disciples viewed the coming and the consummation as two events which were distinct, but closely connected. This will be discussed more fully below.
THE SIGN OF THE END
OF THE AGE

The end of the age - Notice that KJV translates it as "the end of the world" but that is not an accurate translation for Matthew uses aion (age) not kosmos (world).

Fruchtenbaum explains that the disciples "asked for a third sign, and that was: "What will be the sign that the end of this age has begun?" In rabbinic theology of that day, the rabbis spoke of two ages: this age, in which we now live; and the age to come, the Messianic Age. The question is: "What is the sign that the last days of this age have begun and that will lead to the Messianic Age? All together, then, there were three questions in which the disciples asked for three signs to watch for (Ed: See Table below). Jesus answered these questions, but not in the same order as they were asked. He answered the third question first, the first question second, and the second question third. Nor are all three answers found in all three accounts. While Matthew and Mark recorded the answers to the second and third questions, they ignored the answer to the first question. It is Luke who recorded the Messiah's answer to the first question." (The Footsteps of the Messiah- A Study of the Sequence of Prophetic Events)

Thomas Constable agrees that "By asking the question this way clearly the disciples believed that Jesus' coming (prophesied in Mt 23:39) would end the present age and introduce the Messianic Age." (Matthew 24 Commentary)

In summary, by linking Jesus coming with the end the disciples probably believed that Jesus' coming would end the present age and bring in the Messianic Age.

Iscariot was a Zealot, & he was deeply disappointed when he realized Jesus wasn't goint to use His power to free the Jews from Roman rule. Thus, he decided to betray Him to those Jews who wanted Him dead.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iscariot was a Zealot, & he was deeply disappointed when he realized Jesus wasn't goint to use His power to free the Jews from Roman rule. Thus, he decided to betray Him to those Jews who wanted Him dead.

Not talking about that at all.
This is about the word used...end of the age, not the end of the world.

 

[Two Wings]

Two Wings,



Hello TW,

Thanks for this fine question. Let me try and suggest one possible way.
I do not speak for all partial preterists but will help get you started.

1] Christians overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of His testimony.

2]Every believer must give a reason for how all the verses can inform us as to truth, comparing scripture with scripture.

3] Every orthodox eschatological position ends in Victory on the Last day.

4] learn the basic framework of each position.

5] Many times the Nt. explains the exact meaning from the Ot texts.

For example;Acts 2:16

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

We are told clearly......THIS IS THAT

So we can go back and look at Joel and read it, knowing that Peter by the Spirit gives part of the interpretation.,
so then we search all the scripture to see what is meant by the language used...sun, moon, and stars.
Keep a notebook and copy other locations God uses the same language and compare what it meant in the other places.

iconoclast ... thank you for your detailed reply.

One of the things which highlighted a post-tribulation rapture from a pre-tribulation rapture for me is how part of what you listed is answered.

John 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father."

So clearly in this passage Jesus is speaking directly to those men who were soon to become known as Apostles. Did the Apostles do something greater than Jesus did? The only thing I can see is that the Apostles were empowered by the Holy Spirit Jesus referenced later to lead the lost to Jesus ... as opposed to Jesus doing this Himself while He walked the planet. The Apostles healed the sick ... cast out demons ... like Jesus did. But what about GREATER?

It's hard for me to imagine a person doing things GREATER than Jesus did, but He said this is what would happen after He departed. So, the only question is ... did those things already happen, too? Or are those things which will be a result of the Holy Spirit's outpouring as you referenced .... but that reference has also yet to happen?

Is what's already happened the best of the Holy Spirit's empowerment? I mean, that's kinda cool healing the sick and casting out demons ... but is there anything else? Or is that yet to come ... in the face of evil we've never seen before? Can we imagine Acts 2:18??? I suggest to you ... no. 1 Cor 2:9 ... "... no mind has conceived of the things of God." So, until we are with Him in Glory ... it's impossible for us to have seen/heard/conceived of these things which are going to take place BY those current disciples of Christ. So ... how can these GREATER works have been done if we haven't seen/read/heard of them to conceive of them?

Dan 11:32 refers to "exploits" those who love God will do ... in the face of antichrist ... When Antiochus was rampaging, did God's people "do exploits" then?

As Jesus' Disciples then became known as Apostles. I believe His Disciples in THAT period of time will become known as Overcomers; from the citation you already gave.

Is it reasonable to understand the reference Jesus made in Matthew 24 about " For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will." has passed ...

but the 2000 years following it couldn't be worse? the 1/3 of human existence (2000 of 6000) Or ... has that period referenced in Matt 24:21 YET to happen? I mean, consider some of the evils which have transpired since 70AD. IDK if they're worse ... but I couldn't say that Antiochus Epiphanies was worse that Polpot ... or that Nero was MORE evil than (pick one) ... and most of these are in the last century!

1. Adolf Hitler
2. Joseph Stalin
3. Vlad Tepes
4. Osama Bin Laden
5. Mao Zedong
6. Pol Pot
7. Genghis Khan
8. Heinrich Himmler
9. Kim Jong-il
10. Saddam Hussein

I think the evil to fulfill Jesus' prophesy is YET to be seen. We've been given glimpses. There have been some unspeakable horrors committed ... some of those have been since 70AD ... and they're warm ups for THE antichrist/the beast/the false prophet.

Daniel also speaks about a time where folks travel to and fro with ease. I mentioned Jesus travel in/out of Jerusalem during the week of Passover/His trial/crucifixion ... but I don't think that was Daniel's reference. We are traveling DAILY Dallas/Ft. Worth to Hong Kong. D A I L Y. Perhaps that Daniel reference is to the Starship Enterprise? But that's farther away from your perspective than closer.

Daniel also says in that passage ... knowledge will increase. That's certainly happened more now than in 70AD, yes? Both in breadth and depth of knowledge ... outward to space and inward to microns/viruses. (notice Daniel didn't say WISDOM would increase, nor did he say DISCERNMENT would increase ... only KNOWLEDGE)

I'll review your references again in the perspective that "it's all done" ... but it still leaves me wondering if that's true ... what is THIS we're doing?

 

[37818]

1) When will these things happen?

(2a) What will be the sign of Your coming?

(2b) What will be the sign of the End of the Age?

Technically you are correct. I counted the questions as two as translated. Those two questions are unique to Matthew's account. And though you may not agree, it is what Jesus answered. Mark and Luke did not record those two questions. Only the questions regarding the destruction of the temple. Which I am of the understanding Jesus did not answer.

 

[Iconoclast]

As Jesus' Disciples then became known as Apostles. I believe His Disciples in THAT period of time will become known as Overcomers; from the citation you already gave.

MK3;
14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:


Greater,=wider in scope, they spread out over a wide area.

They did happen as signs of the Apostles;
2cor12
12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Acts512 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
Acts14;3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.



Acts28
23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

The judgments of the tribulation were upon one city, Jerusalem....The Holy City was being judged.
The Holy City was like Babylon...apostate and unbelief.

 

[Iconoclast]

Technically you are correct. I counted the questions as two as translated. Those two questions are unique to Matthew's account. And though you may not agree, it is what Jesus answered. Mark and Luke did not record those two questions. Only the questions regarding the destruction of the temple. Which I am of the understanding Jesus did not answer.

Not trying to be "right" on each detail, rather trying to get the overall picture in a workable form to present to those who are trying to figure out what in the world is going on.
I have been working on a more biblical worldview.
Postmill teaching says the church wins down here in the long run.
All the other views indicate we lose down here in the Words of JohnM.
I believe this;PSALM22
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

 

[rockytopva]

If we are coming back with Jesus to reign a thousand years how could we do so if we do not rise first to meet him in the air? In which the dead in Christ will rise first? And such events happen as a thief in the night?

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and ahall reign with him a thousand years. - Revelation 20

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thessalonians 2

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and ahall reign with him a thousand years. - Revelation 20

if there is no rapture, and we are resurrected to reign with Christ a thousand years, that would, in the words of JV McGee, that would be a quick trip!

 

[Two Wings]

Greater,=wider in scope, they spread out over a wide area.

Hmm. I'm unconvinced Jesus is expending instruction on the obvious; property of multiplication.

Did you miss the part about comparative evil ... so as to fulfill Jesus' prophesy, 70AD had to be the worst ever.

It was bad, if you were in Jerusalem ... and see ... that's part of this mystery. Peter said in Acts somewhere ... not a Believer was killed when the sanctuary was destroyed. That was so because they paid attention to Jesus' words. They KNEW (the Hebrew calendar equivalent) 70AD was the time to "vamoose."

I think it's necessary to establish there's been no evil greater than 70AD ... if that was the tribulation Jesus referenced.

 

[kyredneck]

Or, do we believe those people who put forth the goofy idea that all prophecy has been fulfilled?

You're the one that holds to goofy, fake, phony as a Ford Corvette FICTION that blatantly makes God and Jesus and the prophets out to be liars. We BELIEVE THE SCRIPTUR$ES, you reject them.

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

 

[Two Wings]

if there is no rapture, and we are resurrected to reign with Christ a thousand years, that would, in the words of JV McGee, that would be a quick trip!

I think the rapture happens just prior to the Wrath of The Lamb ...

7 years of cleanup by what's left of Israel (Jesus intervenes to end Armageddon) ... in Heaven is the Wedding Feast of the Lamb ... & the Bema Seat.

It'll be a long 7 year clean up project for those left on earth. We'll all have a wince moment in the Bema Seat, but praise be to the King of Kings for His intervention there.

 

[Two Wings]

We BELIEVE THE SCRIPTUR$ES, you reject them.

Sir ... then the list of questions roby posted should be easily answered if all of that is history.

 

[Two Wings]

I don't intend to engage in ad hominem ... I appreciate the same ...

but these questions are answerable if all prophesy has been fulfilled by 70AD

thanks for considering these questions:

Please tell us the name of the beast.
Please tell us the name of the false prophet.
Please tell us when the beast committed the AOD.
Please describe what the mark of the beast looked like.
Please tell us when all life in the Mediterranean Sea died.
Please tell us when the great trib occurred worldwide, as Jesus said it would.
Please tell us when the beast & false prophet were cast alive into hell.

 

[kyredneck]

Sir ... then the list of questions roby posted should be easily answered if all of that is history.

Sir....he's been answered many times over the years.