Featured False Teaching of Contemplative Prayer...

I have posted that quote by Willard several times. He was a flaming liberal at best. And he was one of the primary drivers behind the spiritual formation movement.

 

John Piper's Contradictory Position on Contemplative Prayer

This past week we received an e-mail from a reader who brought to our attention a video online showing where popular Calvinist teacher John Piper is asked the question: “Is there such a thing as contemplative prayer or Christian meditation in the Reformed and Puritan tradition?” Piper answers by first attempting to define contemplative prayer:

[T]here is a spiritual seeing, or what we would call contemplation. This is where, when you read your Bible, you pause and you see in and through the words to the reality with your heart, and you apprehend spiritual reality. And this gives rise to a kind of praying that is spiritual and authentic and personal and warm and strong.

In the video, Piper says he is “ticked” with Christian seminary classes that turn “mainly” to the “mystical Catholic tradition in order to find this kind of depth and this kind of personal connection with the living God that is both rational and supra-rational and very mystical in its communion.” He adds, “You don’t have to embrace bad theology, namely Roman Catholic historic bad theology, in order to find amazing representatives of those who’ve known God at this level.”

The obvious question that was not answered in this snippet is whom does Piper believe are some of these “amazing representatives” who can teach us about “good” contemplative prayer? Thanks to our keen-eyed reader, who sent us a link to Piper’s church’s bookstore, we found that answer, at least in part--none other than Richard Foster, whose book Prayer: Finding the Heart’s True Home is being sold on the Bethlehem Baptist Church’s bookstore website. Prayer: Finding the Heart’s True Home is one of Foster’s primers on contemplative prayer. In that book, Foster tells us: “You must bind the mind with one thought” (p. 124). Foster’s advice echoes mystics such as Anthony DeMello as Ray Yungen points out in A Time of Departing (p. 75). Yungen warns that this binding the mind (getting rid of distractions and thoughts) is no different than classic Hindu meditation.

http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/john _pipers_contradictory_position.html

 

I haven't read all the posts on this but isn't Rick Warren a promoter of CP? I know he has endorsed Willard and Foster in the past not to mention Brian McLaren and the Emerging crowd.

 

Finally...something legit to call out! The initial post mentioned him, and for a change wr are in agreement on his error.

 

Wd,and Amy,
Good posts in this thread:thumbsup::thumbs:
Biblical meditation requires our mind to be fully engaged in the verses we are contemplating.The words used in scripture give the same idea as the action of a cow who chews,and chews , on his food...over and over again.

The word that we feed on is to be gone over and over in our minds, not that we empty our minds.

 

I've read Foster and am not a big fan. Having a book in a bookstore does not necessarily mean endorsement of everything in every book. In fact, often there are signs stating such a warning.

 

P4T,

I offered Johnny Mac....as an example of someone who sees a danger in the Cp idea as described.....not about Piper.

Over all although Piper says and believes many things I can and do agree with i also am concerned about some of His ideas...

In post 45 WD said this:

As there are many times that WD and I do not see eye to eye....this is not one of them.

John Piper has some unique insights and seems to have a great degree of gift.He comes out with some thoughts that many will not come up with.

however as WD says....he is not above examination...no one is.

It seems to me to some extent he is under going some changes, or exploring different ideas.Sometimes this is good...sometimes it can indicate a problem.

It is not like I know him personally, and have not met him yet...to speak with him.
Mexdef also issued a good word of caution about being too quick to talebear about someone.


Did'nt Piper step down as an elder in Minnesota? at least for awhile?
Maybe he needs to sort things out??

http://www.christianpost.com/news/john-piper-to-leave-bethlehem-church-for-a-year-in-may-92325/

 

Could you take some time and explain what you mean by this...maybe 4-5 examples of specifically how this takes place?

Do you hear an audible voice?

 

Icon,

Thanks for highlighting the 'hero' part. This must prove something. :laugh:

Let me set the record straight as to why I chose Piper to comment on in this thread:

1) He had a link in the OP with his name on it that linked to a video!

2) Taking the lazy way out I examined him only, because it was easy and right there a click away!

Yes you offered JM and I agree with him 100%. But you're skipping part of it and that wasn't my point. Your misquote of Piper and concluding on him via that quote which wasn't his is what concerned me. You've skipped over that misnomer in your response here. You made conclusions based on Piper via a quote that wasn't his. Sometimes these things happen as a freudian slip. You said the post I refer to was 'not about Piper' when in fact the post I refer to you did mention Piper and in fact was about him...but now you want to forget all about it because you misquoted him. Understandable.

I am not a big fan of Piper. I've attempted to enjoy his book 'Desiring God' as much as everyone else that has but didn't as much as the throngs who loved it. I've also looked over his website, but I just for some reason don't get into him so much. After watching the video I felt the need to point out the straw man on him and would do the same for others. If Driscoll were mentioned first with a link in the OP as Piper I would've clicked it first and had gone there. If the same conclusions were found, I'd have used him as an example. Nothing in what he said condemns him as practicing a mystical CP. I believe he was rejecting 'new' CP and protecting true Biblical meditation. That's what I got from his video.

Somehow you've garnered the idea that I believe he is above examination I suppose, otherwise I don't see the point in mentioning this at this time. Wonder why I clicked the link? Well, in order to examine him.

I don't disagree with either Amy nor WD, but I don't see your point in bringing them up unless somehow you believe I support this mysticism and that you have missed that I am totally 100% against it. That's exactly how this post is coming across as if you are in a belief system in which I am on the outside looking in. I'm on the same side as you are on this CP issue. :smilewinkgrin:

Suspicious suspicious suspicious... !

I can't conclude that he is undergoing changes and changes aren't always bad are they? I don't see the point in making said statement except perhaps to draw suspicion upon him.

Yes, don't be too quick to talebear on someone. :wavey:

I don't believe in marking someone with suspicious questionings or statements without solid evidence they are practicing false teaching. Do you?

Oh boy...

This is sounding more and more like a witch hunt... :thumbs:

So what if he stepped down? You mean his recent retirement from the pastorate? If so that was planned out and a successor was brought in. This comes across as another suspicious accusation on his part from you Icon. It's a pattern.

THAT is exactly what I am talking about here, this pointing at someone and making them a suspect with no real cause as I believe you've done here in this last paragraph. I believe the OP does the same.

Keep in mind Biblically calling a person out was done by name with proof, not simply by making suspicious remarks as you have in fact done... (i.e. Phygelus and Hermogenes 2 Timothy 1:15 and also Hymenaeus, Philetus, Alexander the coppersmith, Demas and others as per 1 Timothy 1:15 & 2 Timothy 4:10, 14 respectively.)

Now, as soon as there is clear evidence that he is practicing a shamanesque CP I'd like to know about it. In the mean time I'm not going to post things that question a person or make statements about what a person has done to color them as suspect without reason.

- Blessings

 

preacher4truth

Sorry my post was not clearer.I was trying to comment on 3-4 posts at the same time.I was not addressing all of it your way.Let me expand a little bit as it might be helpful in a general way.:type:

As i started looking this up online that link spoke clearly to this issue{C.P.}

We both agree as GTY guys are mostly solid in what they say on many issues. That was just offered in a general way to begin to see how others were speaking of this issue, not in reference to John Piper.

In post#7 I addressed the CP idea....and spoke about it being satans version of bait and switch....This is before I even address Piper, or his thoughts on it.

I was speaking about the CP idea as this to me is what is at issue:

This is what I see as the danger.Later on Piper in the link says he is ticked at seminaries and that we do not need to use bad theology,etc.

I would need to hear more on this, a clearer statement.

If you look at post 7....that was what I was speaking of.

In post 15 I begin to speak about Piper....and my comments there are more about comments he has made about gifts and revelation in times past.

Anyone who leaves the door open is a suspect to me.

I feel the same way on this!I will listen to what he offers, but he is not one of my go to guys.There are many others I would read or listen to before him.

It is good to be cautious.I did not understand his writing to well ,so maybe
I am not understanding his statements here either.
that is what I posted about:

Somehow you've garnered the idea that I believe he is above examination I suppose, otherwise I don't see the point in mentioning this at this time. Wonder why I clicked the link? Well, in order to examine him.

I mentioned them to support the idea that we should always examine the teachers we listen to...some others were being critical of them.

No...I know we are seeing it mostly the same.I just did not post clearly enough!

Like I said, I do not fully trust any non cessationist.

http://www.cityofgodblog.com/2013/01/sorry-cessationists-john-piper-isnt-playing-for-your-team/

The point is....he recently was treated for cancer,he stepped down from a public ministry, he seems to be questioning many areas of theology.

Pastors and teachers I have come to trust stay in the protection of scripture.
Many like what he does and teaches on many areas.I do not trust this new group of men,who have an odd mix of theology.



Yes, don't be too quick to talebear on someone. :wavey:

I personally have never been comfortable with him...before this whole issue.He does not speak for me.

I can think out loud:thumbs:I would raise the same issues if I saw him, or Wayne Grudem face to face...or I would not say it here.

I believe if someone goes outside of scripture,eventually they will step out into error,openly.

If I wanted to "call him out"...I would have started my own thread.I listen to him, but do not have confidence in Him.

The issue is not that he originated this idea.The issue in question is...did he support those who follow this or not?:I have not seen him as being on the correct side of these things in times past.

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/articles/signs-and-wonders-then-and-now

 

Fair enough Icon! :thumbsup:

- Blessings

 

I am thankful that you and mexdef and others would hold me accountable for my posts:thumbs: If at anytime you see me saying something questionable, feel free to call me on it, ask for clarification, or offer scriptural correction.
I think that is what is healthy and we should do more of it.
Thanks again for not letting me go un-checked:thumbs::thumbs:

A bit more on this....some speculation,and a comment;

he might have stepped down for several reasons

1]health

2]family things

3] he might have felt "led' to make this change

4] he might have a desire to write more than preach now

5]he might be questioning or exploring his own theology,and if so perhaps he did not want to make a congregation get mixed up in his own searching...

In other words.....just because he has become a well known and popular teacher...he still has a right to explore and seek God's face however he feels he needs to.Some men who get so "popular" writing books and such.....almost get an extra pressure to live up to the image other people have of them...rather than....who they are as an individual before the Lord.

If any such speculation as this is true.....I would have much respect for John Piper or anyone else for stepping back and examining things until he sorts them out.

He might not want to be in the spotlight as much ...if he does not have a clear path, or conscience on some issues....

in time we will know more of it. regular Christians do the same thing sometimes, but no one knows it...until later on...

let's say.....WD, or Benjamin, or HOS, or Skan{is he okay? anyone hear from him?]...let's say they are being moved to embrace the DoG.....they would not say so,unless and until God allowed them to be settled in their own minds and comfortable with the scriptures on these matters! many who openly opposed some of the teaching believing it to be false, become it's strongest advocates!!!

 

Icon,

Yes and you're welcome. We should all expect this and not blow up if what we say or how we see things is challenged. To go off the handle when what we post is challenged is simply to be prideful.

Been there.

Done that.

Knowledge puffs up, therefore perhaps Peter put '...grown in grace and in knowledge' 2 Peter 3:18 in that order via the Spirit because of our pride. :thumbsup:

I believe I read somewhere that Piper wanted to concentrate on the Desiring God website teaching materials, books &c. Many of the materials there are free. I think they need to boot this Foster off that site if he espouses this CP mysticism.

- Blessings

 

I despise this kind of thing. I despise mysticism in Christianity. I am a dyed in the wool cessationist. I believe God talks to us today through the Bible alone and he guides us by it and through Providence (the actual unfolding of circumstances around us- concrete things in opposition to subjective or intuitive experiences).

I disagree with Piper wholeheartedly on this matter.

HOWEVER, I don't know that the links you provided really indict Piper and Beth Moore on anything terrible.

If they were saying that God is saying things NOT IN THE TEXT- yes, this is VERY problematic.

But if they are just saying that as you pause and meditate and pray about what you just read from the Bible you "contemplate" on it and discover all kinds of truths that a casual reading would not have rendered for you- I don't have a serious problem with that.

 

It’s interesting how you phrased this: “deal with the themes regarding Contemplative Prayers” instead of saying that the books teach contemplative prayer as you described it. Since those books (or any of his other writings) DO NOT teach contemplative prayer as you describe it, not to mention more than 120 hours of teaching on spiritual formation dealing specifically with spiritual disciplines and practices that I have personally listened to, it is dishonest to claim he taught contemplative prayer as you describe it.

A recommendation to read a book does not necessarily mean a blanket endorsement of everything that an author has to say. I have recommended books by R.C. Sproul, but that doesn’t mean I endorse Five-Point Calvinism. Willard expected his readers to have discernment and trusted people to be led of the Spirit as they pursued God.

It’s clear you haven’t read the book or even checked out this information for yourself. You are simply trusting the websites of liars.

Here is what he wrote on page 370 of The Divine Conspiracy:

“But to be fair, consumer Christianity actually emerges quite early in the history of the church. One sees the seeds of it in the New Testament writings, and it becomes prominent through the development of the monastic tradition, which distinguished those who gave their whole lives to God – “the religious,” they are sometimes called – from the supposedly lower-grade Christians who ran farms and business, raised families, and participated in government and cultural affairs.

“Thus some of the most profound treatments of discipleship to Jesus, such as The Rule of Saint Benedict, The Imitation of Christ, and The Spiritual Exercises of Saint Ignatius, presuppose a special class of Christians for whom they are not written. But if you simply lay that assumption aside and make necessary adjustments to the content of such works, you will see that they offer, in substance, precisely what we have been discussing in this chapter: a curriculum, a course of training, for life on the rock. And that is why, century after century, they have exercised incredible power over all who open themselves to them as disciples of Jesus.

“And if you look at the founding persons, events, and literature of the great segments of Protestantism, you will discover much the same thing. We refer, of course, to traditions such as the Lutheran, Reformed (Calvin), Puritan, Mennonite, Friends (Quaker), Methodist, and so forth. If you examine landmark works such as Calvin’s Institutes of John Wesley’s standard two-volume set of Sermons, you will discover nothing new in what I have said here about a curriculum for Christlikeness, except possibly some points of organization…”

He has been a major figure in reintroducing the 20th and 21st century Western Christians to spiritual/character formation. It was fundamentally lost during the fundamentalist/modernist controversies of the late 19th century and early 20th century.

You are wrong about Willard endorsing contemplative prayer as you have described it. You have provided no evidence that holds up to even the most casual scrutiny. I am very familiar with the writings and teachings of Willard and have never encountered anything like you describe.

Much of Foster’s emphasis on prayer (which I’m not entirely comfortable with), is based on his Quaker roots. I am no expert on Foster, so I don’t want to speak when I don’t know enough to make the call. However, since your sources are so dishonest about Willard, and probably Piper (I’m no expert on Piper, but others here who know his teaching well are protesting, so I guessing they are correct), I have little faith that they are being accurate about Foster.

The web is full of people who copy the lies and distortions of others instead of actually checking things out for themselves. You are foolish if you simply rely on what other people say instead of doing even a minimal amount of research to see if the things you read are actually true.

A follower of Jesus has no business promoting or repeating falsehoods about others. You may have done it in ignorance, but now is the time to check things out for yourself and set the record straight.

 

Wow. Another thinking Christian who can see through the smoke screen. How refreshing.

 

Sure. I could give you quite a few anecdotes, but the most important thing to know is that this is taught and demonstrated in scripture.

In both the Old and New Testaments, God spoke specifically with individuals, before and after conversion, to reveal Himself and His direction.

Jesus plainly taught, “My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me.” (John 10:27)

This “knowing” Jesus is not simply information, but it is a personal interactive relationship of communication and fellowship.

God certainly communicates to us through scripture, and scripture is a much more objective guide than individual/personal specific revelation, but God also often gives us insight and knowledge to use as we minister to others or face life choices between equally virtuous paths. In my experience, God has also reinforced revelation in the scripture through personal conviction and affirmation so that I will take extremely unpopular or risky stands against those who hold power when I need to stand up for what is right and true.

I don’t think my experiences are typical because I believe I have the spiritual gift of “word of knowledge” that I use in ministry. Those who are not familiar with it will likely find it to be strange. I am not interested in arguing about it, but I was asked, so I’m telling. If you don’t believe me, that’s fine. I’m not trying to convince anyone. The manifestation of this gift in my life doesn’t mean I’m any better or any worse than anyone else. It is just one of the ways God works through me.

I often get specific and personal revelation when ministering to those who are in crisis. On a few occasions I have been told that a specific person is in crisis and that I need to go talk to them about something very specific that they have been praying about – sometimes I even am told their location when they are not at home or answering their phone.

This has happened with a young woman who was suicidal (we got her help), a teenaged son of a friend of mine who was in severe depression and survivor’s guilt over the suicide of a friend and asked God to prove that He was listening to him (I found him at the IHOP and told him exactly what he was praying about – he was stunned and started crying uncontrollably with relief and joy, so much so that the waitress was afraid that I was upsetting him and wanted to know if she should call the police), a good friend who was about to expose a sexual predator in her church (a popular man) and she knew she was going to have her name dragged through the mud for her courage (she was vilified and condemned by the church, even though several other woman came forward afterward with similar stories of his aggressive sexual attacks, so the church finally dealt with it), etc.

I’ve never quite understood the obsession with hearing an audible voice. I never have and don’t expect to hear one, but I wouldn’t rule it out.

Most of the time, with some exceptions, it is a sudden knowing of information or a course of action that has clearly come from outside myself. It is often not something that is formed by language, but rather a deposit of treasure that I process through my mental faculties.

It often happens when I am answering questions that people pose to me at church when I am teaching where I suddenly possess much more wisdom and knowledge than I had before the question and answer session. I find myself surprised by it and often try to write everything down that was said afterward so I can meditate on it.

On much rarer occasions, the knowledge or information comes in the form of language, as in the more unusual cases I mentioned when dealing with people in crisis. I am often given something very specific to say and I am led to tell someone that “You have been praying about [a certain thing/issue] and God told me to tell you [a certain thing/issue].” That makes me very nervous because I always doubt myself in those times, but the reaction of the other person relieves those fears because they confirm that is exactly what they have been praying about and that the answer makes sense to them – it often does not make sense to me, but I don’t usually have the context to understand and it really isn’t my business. For the record, this has only happened about seven or eight times in the last 30 years.