Father Forgive Them

[Jkdbuck76]

I know of one verse they can't C vs A to death.


11And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man:

 

[webdog]

How could God forgive those Christ wasn't dying for, and why would He make such a request?

 

[Rippon]

It works the other way, too, Robert. Here's another version of your post:

Many verses and an honest reading of the Word of God challenges the very core of non-calvinism. You have to cherry-pick verses and make up new definitions for non-calvinism to be viable at all. The bible doesn't support this doctrine at all!

For instance, dead cannot mean dead (in Ephesians 2) and no one cannot mean no one (in John 6 )for non-calvinism to work, thus a new definition. I'm somewhat surprised that the non-calvinists haven't translated their own translation like some others have done.
​

I liked David's post. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[Calv1]

I have been told by Calvinists that "Christ intercedes for his elect only".

So all those crucifying him in sheer ignorance became believers, is that right?

Of course Christ only incedes for His elect. Christs prayers, unlike ours, are always efficacous. On the night of His betrayal, He prayed, "Father, I pray NOT for the world, but for those you have given me". Today He prays night and day for His elect, no one else.

He prayed "Father, forgive them", only in the sense that the Father would destroy those who would torture His Son.

 

[webdog]

So let me get this right...when Christ asked the Father to forgive them what He really meant in that is He wanted them destroyed.

I'm so glad we have calvinism to define these simple phrases and interactions for us!

 

[Calv1]

Thank you!

 

[webdog]

Thank you!

While I was being completely facetious, I do want to welcome you to the board :thumbs:

 

[Calv1]

Thanks Brother! It's good to be here.

 

[Skandelon]

Of course Christ only incedes for His elect. Christs prayers, unlike ours, are always efficacous. On the night of His betrayal, He prayed, "Father, I pray NOT for the world, but for those you have given me". Today He prays night and day for His elect, no one else.

I agree that Jesus was praying for his elect apostles in the verse you quoted, but if you go on to read the rest of the prayer you will see that he also prays for those who believe in Christ through their message:

20 I pray not only for these, but also for those who believe in Me through their message.

Proof that God handpicks and sovereignly calls his messengers is not proof that their audiences are likewise individually selected and effectually made to believe in their message.

Jonah clearly was sovereignly brought to preach to the Ninevites (though outward/normative means, not an inward effectual work), but that doesn't prove that God irresistibly called particular individuals to believe his message.

He prayed "Father, forgive them", only in the sense that the Father would destroy those who would torture His Son.

I believe Jesus is expressing mercy to those who act in ignorance. Many of the same people who cried out crucify him were the same people who came to faith in Acts 2 when presented with the truth of the gospel (something hidden from them until that time).

 

[Calv1]

I agree that Jesus was praying for his elect apostles in the verse you quoted, but if you go on to read the rest of the prayer you will see that he also prays for those who believe in Christ through their message:

20 I pray not only for these, but also for those who believe in Me through their message.

Proof that God handpicks and sovereignly calls his messengers is not proof that their audiences are likewise individually selected and effectually made to believe in their message.

Calv1: Sorry, I don't know how to use the quote button yet. You are missing my point, Jesus was going to the cross, for in your mind, the entire world, why did He not pray for all? And your addition to my quick quote only buttress my argument. It is normative in all of scripture for God to pick some, they are refered to as the "Elect", whether it be man or angels.

Jonah clearly was sovereignly brought to preach to the Ninevites (though outward/normative means, not an inward effectual work), but that doesn't prove that God irresistibly called particular individuals to believe his message.

I believe Jesus is expressing mercy to those who act in ignorance. Many of the same people who cried out crucify him were the same people who came to faith in Acts 2 when presented with the truth of the gospel (something hidden from them until that time).

Calv1: We disagree. Nice to be here by the way, this is great!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Webdog posted...

While I was being completely facetious, I do want to welcome you to the board

Yes. Let my also extend a warm WELCOME to the forums here to Calv1!

May the discussions go well for you. :wavey:

 

[Skandelon]

Calv1: Sorry, I don't know how to use the quote button yet. You are missing my point, Jesus was going to the cross, for in your mind, the entire world, why did He not pray for all?

I understood your point. I just disagreed with it. I was a 5 point Calvinist for many years, so I hear where you are coming from...I really do.

He prayed for his apostles (those the father gave to him) and for all those who would believe their message. Now, you can debate whether he means those who believe due to the effectual working of the HS or those who freely respond to hearing the gospel, but that particular point is not addressed in this passage.

It is normative in all of scripture for God to pick some, they are refered to as the "Elect", whether it be man or angels.

I agree.

Calv1: We disagree. Nice to be here by the way, this is great!

Welcome to the board!! Look forward to reading (and maybe occasionally rebutting) your contributions. :wavey:

 

[kyredneck]

I know of one verse they can't C vs A to death.


11And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man:

.....but, but,...being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad that the purpose of God according to election might stand.....it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. :laugh:

 

[Calv1]

.....but, but,...being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad that the purpose of God according to election might stand.....it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. :laugh:

Right. This is a tower than no synergist can overcome. They try to make it nations even though "Esau", and "Jacob", are in the Greek first person nouns, and even if it was nations, so what? It still shows particularity!

And what is it that "May stand"? ELECTION. Paul even uses the term "Doctring of election"

Good on you brother.

 

[Calv1]

I understood your point. I just disagreed with it. I was a 5 point Calvinist for many years, so I hear where you are coming from...I really do.

Calv1: You are the moderator, does that mean if I disagree with you I'm in trouble?????? I will be as kind as can be!!!!

He prayed for his apostles (those the father gave to him) and for all those who would believe their message. Now, you can debate whether he means those who believe due to the effectual working of the HS or those who freely respond to hearing the gospel, but that particular point is not addressed in this passage.

Calv1: Ironic, synergist's always say that the "World", in every case (See John 3:16 posts), always means "All men"

Jesus' prayer was clear, "I do NOT PRAY FOR THE WORLD, but FOR THOSE YOU HAVE GIVEN ME.

Likewise, I have been where you have been, even wrote papers and a book trying to debunk Calvinism without success to myself.

Welcome to the board!! Look forward to reading (and maybe occasionally rebutting) your contributions. :wavey:

Calv1: Thank you, it's always nice to be welcomed!

 

[Jerome]

A real Reformer weighs in:

"It is also likely that in the end Esau was saved." —Martin Luther

Good on you Luther.

 

[Rippon]

A real Reformer weighs in:

"It is also likely that in the end Esau was saved." —Martin Luther

Good on you Luther.

So Luther ignored Romans 9:13. He should have known better because he included that passage in his own translation.

M.L. had no business saying such a non-biblical thing.

 

[TomVols]

It is a hermeneutical stretch to say this means anything other than Jesus' petition to forgive those crucifying them. This discussion shows the bane of modern Baptist life - we don't know how to handle the Bible. We jump immediately to "What does this mean to me?' (As if that's a valid question to start with) when we should be asking "What is the natural sense of the meaning?"

 

[webdog]

Right. This is a tower than no synergist can overcome. They try to make it nations even though "Esau", and "Jacob", are in the Greek first person nouns, and even if it was nations, so what? It still shows particularity!

And what is it that "May stand"? ELECTION. Paul even uses the term "Doctring of election"

Good on you brother.

Don't want to chase this rabbit too far...but please supply a time when the older brother ever served the younger brother. The Lord had said "there are two nations in your womb..."

 

[Jkdbuck76]

So Luther ignored Romans 9:13. He should have known better because he included that passage in his own translation.

M.L. had no business saying such a non-biblical thing.

Now tie that all in to Esau being hairy.