Faulty Logic, Faulty Theology

[HankD]

All you have to do is read the Scriptures.
Romans 5:12. 'Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin......'
Sin entered the world through Adam's disobedience to God's command. Death entered the world because of sin.
If there had been no sin, there would have been no death, for the wages of sin is death. Therefore if Adam had not sinned, he would not have died. QED, End of story.

finally

 

[church mouse guy]

I Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Death is an enemy and was not originally part of the Garden of Eden. English poet Milton said that Lucifer had sex with his daughter Sin who looks just like her father and their incest gave birth to Death who looks just like Lucifer and Sin. Sin and Death now guard the gates of Hell.

 

[MartyF]

2. We don't know if he would have lived forever had he not eaten the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We only know that if he ate of it he would surely die. As I read that passage I see some leeway for Adam not dying if he abstained from eating it, but I see death as a certainty if he were to eat of it.

Genesis 3:22 NLT
[22] Then the LORD God said, "Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!"

 

[Reformed1689]

“Die die” and “eat eat” are Hebrew idioms whose meaning changes with context. In this case, “on that day, you will be subject to death.” or “you will surely die” is what is meant by context. “I will slay you on that day” or “On that day, you will die” is not implied by the context.

Yet, in the whole context of Scripture, we know that Adam did, in fact, die on that very day. He was now dead in sin.

 

[InTheLight]

Genesis 3:22 NLT
[22] Then the LORD God said, "Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!"

Nice translation there.

"What if they reach out, take fruit..."

"What if?"

Really?

 

[MartyF]

Nice translation there.

"What if they reach out, take fruit..."

"What if?"

Really?

American vernacular triggers some people.

 

[MartyF]

Yet, in the whole context of Scripture, we know that Adam did, in fact, die on that very day. He was now dead in sin.

Not really. From what I can tell, "dead in sin" is a new phrase commonly used by preachers in the 19th - 21st centuries. Paul talks about how Adam's sin condemned everyone to death. Paul doesn't talk about how Adam's sin condemned everyone to sin.

 

[InTheLight]

American vernacular triggers some people.

It's not that. It's the idea that God is asking the question, "What if?" Most translations have God proclaiming that they will not be allowed to get to the Tree of Life from that point forward. It's not remotely a question, it's a certainty.

 

[MartyF]

It's not that. It's the idea that God is asking the question, "What if?" Most translations have God proclaiming that they will not be allowed to get to the Tree of Life from that point forward. It's not remotely a question, it's a certainty.

Genesis 3:22 NASB
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

(emphasis added.)

same wording as in Exodus.

Exodus 13:17 NKJV
Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, “Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.”

(Emphasis added.)

The God described in the Bible is not the same god of Classical Theism.

 

[Reformed1689]

Not really. From what I can tell, "dead in sin" is a new phrase commonly used by preachers in the 19th - 21st centuries. Paul talks about how Adam's sin condemned everyone to death. Paul doesn't talk about how Adam's sin condemned everyone to sin.

Really? Seems to me it has been in use since the first century.

Ephesians 2:1

 

[Yeshua1]

Exactly.
This is also consistent with the Hebrew use of words. Literally it says "die" twice.

And IMHO we should stick with Scripture rather than using our theories to interpret Scripture.

For the passage to have any merit Adam had to have some type of context of death. God told Adam that on the day he ate of the fruit death would be certain (death would enter Adam's world).

The problem is people tend to lean towards theory and created narratives in order to package their theology.

The logical fallacy associated with this is with those who think that God's words that should Adam eat of the fruit he would die leads to the conclusion that if Adam did not eat of the fruit he would have lived forever.

This is called denying the antecedent (or the inverse fallacy).

I may tell a child not to run out in traffic because if he does so he will die. This does not mean if the child refrains from running out in traffic he will live forever. The process @Martin Marprelate is speaking of is illogical (it is a formal logical fallacy) and as such must be dismissed in an argument. That does not mean his conclusion is false. But it does mean it is neither biblical nor logical.

Sin brought death and the curse into the Creation of God, so no sin meant no death and curse, correct?
You appear to reads back into the passage as much or maybe more so than MM and I do here!

 

[Yeshua1]

The problem is that we all agree with that passage. What you seem not to understand is we disagree with your theory (what you add to those passages). What you add is based on a logical fallacy (it is logically flawed and non-biblical).

So where do YOU stand? On Scripture or on your understanding even if your understanding is illogical? Will you be like the early Christians striving to cling to God's Word, or will you be like the cultists who cling to whatever whim appeals to them regardless of Scripture and regardless of logic?

What do you say, @Martin Marprelate ? Are you able and willing to set aside your tradition to accept Scripture or are you so indoctrinated that this is an impossibility?

You also have some peculiar theology though, for since sin brought death and the curse into the Garden, Adam could have died before he sinned is just accepting what scriptures say to us there!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

From what I can tell, "dead in sin" is a new phrase commonly used by preachers in the 19th - 21st centuries.

The term appears twice in Ephesians 2:1-6. You might also try John 6:53; Colossians 2:13; 1 Timothy 5:6; Revelation 3:1.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The term appears twice in Ephesians 2:1-6. You might also try John 6:53; Colossians 2:13; 1 Timothy 5:6; Revelation 3:1.

I forgot Matthew 8:22; Luke 9:60.

 

[JonC]

Yet, in the whole context of Scripture, we know that Adam did, in fact, die on that very day. He was now dead in sin.

This is not true. We can believe or conclude, but not know. The assumption is Adam experienced a spiritual death because he is in the state of being spiritually dead (and dead in his sins).

We could just as easily assume Adam was not created "spiritually alive" but simply as natural man, upright and sinless. With sin, death enters the world and Adam is absent Life (he is spiritually dead).

The problem comes in when we treat our assumptions as if they were actually taught in Scripture. We can stand firm in our views but should also be careful not to be too dependent on them.

 

[Reformed1689]

This is not true. We can believe or conclude, but not know. The assumption is Adam experienced a spiritual death because he is in the state of being spiritually dead (and dead in his sins).

We could just as easily assume Adam was not created "spiritually alive" but simply as natural man, upright and sinless. With sin, death enters the world and Adam is absent Life (he is spiritually dead).

The problem comes in when we treat our assumptions as if they were actually taught in Scripture. We can stand firm in our views but should also be careful not to be too dependent on them.

But he cannot be dead in sin, which is something straight out of Scripture, if he had not yet sinned.

 

[JonC]

But he cannot be dead in sin, which is something straight out of Scripture, if he had not yet sinned.

I agree.

And being alive in the spirit is everlasting per Scripture.

So where are we? Scripture says Adam was not created spiritual but natural. So Adam was created natural and upright. When Adam sinned death entered the world.

Why add to Scripture a "spiritual dying"?

That is a question for you to consider, you can believe whatever you want. My concern is that you seem to impose it on others as biblical fact when it is actually absent from Scripture.

You and those who disagree with you (like me) agree on Scripture and disagree on the assumption you make regarding Adam dying spiritually.

 

[Reformed1689]

I agree.

And being alive in the spirit is everlasting per Scripture.

So where are we? Scripture says Adam was not created spiritual but natural. So Adam was created natural and upright. When Adam sinned death entered the world.

Why add to Scripture a "spiritual dying"?

That is a question for you to consider, you can believe whatever you want. My concern is that you seem to impose it on others as biblical fact when it is actually absent from Scripture.

You and those who disagree with you (like me) agree on Scripture and disagree on the assumption you make regarding Adam dying spiritually.

A spiritual death because IT IS IN SCRIPTURE. Adam died in his sin. That is not absent from Scripture. I even gave a reference for it in Ephesians. It's not an assumption, it's not even an opinion. The fact is that we are dead in sin. Adam was not always dead in sin because for a time he had not sinned.

 

[church mouse guy]

This is not true. We can believe or conclude, but not know. The assumption is Adam experienced a spiritual death because he is in the state of being spiritually dead (and dead in his sins).

We could just as easily assume Adam was not created "spiritually alive" but simply as natural man, upright and sinless. With sin, death enters the world and Adam is absent Life (he is spiritually dead).

The problem comes in when we treat our assumptions as if they were actually taught in Scripture. We can stand firm in our views but should also be careful not to be too dependent on them.

Once Adam sinned, he was barred not only from the Garden of Eden but also Heaven because sinners do not go to Heaven so therefore Adam was spiritually dead and had to have some provision made for him until Jesus came to earth and told the descendants of Adam that they had to be born again in order to go to Heaven.

Adam caused all of the universe to be cursed. People still didn't get the message and so there was the Genesis Flood which most Americans say never happened.

 

[JonC]

A spiritual death because IT IS IN SCRIPTURE. Adam died in his sin. That is not absent from Scripture. I even gave a reference for it in Ephesians. It's not an assumption, it's not even an opinion. The fact is that we are dead in sin. Adam was not always dead in sin because for a time he had not sinned.

This is not true, David.

The state of being dead spiritually, dead on our sin, is in Scripture. But you are applying this in a way that Scripture never does. Even @Martin Marprelate pointed out that the "die, die" of Genesis is used elsewhere in Scripture and it refers to a certainty of physical death (the death of natural man). And so many passages (that have been provided) state that Adam was not created spiritually alive but alive in the "flesh", alive as "natural" man.

Your error here is not that your conclusions are wrong. I believe they are wrong. Your error here is that you have elevated your theories to be on par with Scriputre.

In Genesis we both agree with Scripture - God told Adam that on the day he ate of the fruit he would surely (or certainly) die. The text states that death would be certain. Later in Scripture (again, as @Martin Marprelate points out) these words are used to describe a man dying physically. So we agree that death entered the world through sin, that on the day Adam ate of the fruit death would be a certainty.

Where we disagree is that you somehow read that passage to say that God told Adam on the day he ate of the fruit he would surely die, he would die physically a long time from then but he would spiritually die on the day that he ate of the fruit. You add so much to Scripture.