Faulty Logic, Faulty Theology

[Reformed1689]

This is not true, David.

The state of being dead spiritually, dead on our sin, is in Scripture. But you are applying this in a way that Scripture never does. Even @Martin Marprelate pointed out that the "die, die" of Genesis is used elsewhere in Scripture and it refers to a certainty of physical death (the death of natural man). And so many passages (that have been provided) state that Adam was not created spiritually alive but alive in the "flesh", alive as "natural" man.

Your error here is not that your conclusions are wrong. I believe they are wrong. Your error here is that you have elevated your theories to be on par with Scriputre.

In Genesis we both agree with Scripture - God told Adam that on the day he ate of the fruit he would surely (or certainly) die. The text states that death would be certain. Later in Scripture (again, as @Martin Marprelate points out) these words are used to describe a man dying physically. So we agree that death entered the world through sin, that on the day Adam ate of the fruit death would be a certainty.

Where we disagree is that you somehow read that passage to say that God told Adam on the day he ate of the fruit he would surely die, he would die physically a long time from then but he would spiritually die on the day that he ate of the fruit. You add so much to Scripture.

Yet you aren't dealing with on important fact, he could not have been dead in sin prior to sinning, so when did that spiritual death occur for Adam John?

 

[JonC]

Once Adam sinned, he was barred not only from the Garden of Eden but also Heaven because sinners do not go to Heaven so therefore Adam was spiritually dead and had to have some provision made for him until Jesus came to earth and told the descendants of Adam that they had to be born again in order to go to Heaven.

Adam caused all of the universe to be cursed. People still didn't get the message and so there was the Genesis Flood which most Americans say never happened.

But no one is saying Adam was not spiritually dead. No one is saying death did not enter the world through Adam's sin and spread to mankind because all men have sinned.

You are taking up @davidtaylorjr 's play on words and entering strawman grounds.

David has ignored what Scripture does say about Adam (that Adam was created "flesh", a "living soul", "not spiritual" but "natural" and "upright") . Instead David has determined Adam was (contrary to 2 Corinthians 15) created "spiritually alive" and then "died spiritually" to become spiritually dead.

I understand the argument but it is biblically baseless.

 

[JonC]

Yet you aren't dealing with on important fact, he could not have been dead in sin prior to sinning, so when did that spiritual death occur for Adam John?

He was not dead in sin prior to sinning. You are assuming this means God created him with "spiritual life" when Scripture says he was created "flesh", "a living soul", "upright", "natural" and NOT a "spiritual being".

I believe that God created Adam "flesh", "a living soul", a "natural man", "not a spiritual man", and "upright". When Adam sinned death entered the world. Adam (like all men) were dead in his sins and trespasses. He was not dead in his sins before he sinned. It was through his sin that death entered the world. All of that (to include Adam not being created a spiritual man but a natural man) is in Scripture.

We agree on the text of Scripture (that God told Adam on the day he ate of the fruit he would certainly/ surely die). We agree (I hope) that God created Adam "flesh", "natural man", a "living soul", "upright" but "not spiritual man" as this is in Scripture itself.

Where we disagree is that the text of Scripture seems complete and logical to me (it makes sense to me as it is stated) while you seem to see it as less than adequate to address the Fall. You continue by adding that Adam died spiritually the day he ate of the fruit, and physically later on with the emphasis being on this "spiritually dying" which is not actually mentioned in the Bible.

I do not accept what you are adding, but we can agree at least on what is actually in Scripture itself. There is no word for "spiritually dying" because it is a concept foreign to Scripture (in the Bible spiritual life never subject to death because it is spiritual and of God's spirit rather than natural and of the flesh).

 

[AustinC]

He was not dead in sin prior to sinning. You are assuming this means God created him with "spiritual life" when Scripture says he was created "flesh", "a living soul", "upright", "natural" and NOT a "spiritual being".

I believe that God created Adam "flesh", "a living soul", a "natural man", "not a spiritual man", and "upright". When Adam sinned death entered the world. Adam (like all men) were dead in his sins and trespasses. He was not dead in his sins before he sinned. It was through his sin that death entered the world. All of that (to include Adam not being created a spiritual man but a natural man) is in Scripture.

We agree on the text of Scripture (that God told Adam on the day he ate of the fruit he would certainly/ surely die). We agree (I hope) that God created Adam "flesh", "natural man", a "living soul", "upright" but "not spiritual man" as this is in Scripture itself.

Where we disagree is that the text of Scripture seems complete and logical to me (it makes sense to me as it is stated) while you seem to see it as less than adequate to address the Fall. You continue by adding that Adam died spiritually the day he ate of the fruit, and physically later on with the emphasis being on this "spiritually dying" which is not actually mentioned in the Bible.

I do not accept what you are adding, but we can agree at least on what is actually in Scripture itself. There is no word for "spiritually dying" because it is a concept foreign to Scripture (in the Bible spiritual life never subject to death because it is spiritual and of God's spirit rather than natural and of the flesh).

Sounds like Adam was a golem with no spirit in him, just a body and an empty soul.
I don't see the Bible references for the Adam as a golem theory. Would you be willing to share that documentation?
Golem | My Jewish Learning

 

[HankD]

Jon and David

please brothers the answers to these question might help

What does this passage mean? what kind of death does a man pass "from" to enter "into" what kind of life (eternal life?)?
Is a man born into this state of death?

NKJV
John 5:24 " Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

 

[JonC]

Sounds like Adam was a golem with no spirit in him, just a body and an empty soul.
I don't see the Bible references for the Adam as a golem theory. Would you be willing to share that documentation?
Golem | My Jewish Learning

No. Scripture teaches that Adam was natural man, a living soul. And yes, I have already shared that documentation. It is called "the Bible". In 2 Corinthians Paul tells us that Adam was created "natural man" and "not spiritual man". In The Bible (that big, often black, book) also tells us that Adam was created "flesh" and "not spirit". And in Genesis we read that Adam was created without his eyes being opened to the knowledge of good and evil (Spiritual life is described as a spirit "set on the Spirit", "walking in Light", not "ignorant of good and evil".

Do you have any documentation that presents Adam as being created "spiritually alive" and then "spiritually dying" (in fact, do you have any verse that says anyone has "experienced spiritually dying"? No, of course you do not. Scripture (again, the "Christian Bible") speaks of the spiritual as not subject to "corruption" and not subject to death.

 

[JonC]

Jon and David

please brothers the answers to these question might help

What does this passage mean? what kind of death does a man pass "from" to enter "into" what kind of life (eternal life?)?
Is a man born into this state of death?

NKJV
John 5:24 " Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

I believe Scripture is saying that we move from the "natural" which is subject to death into the "spiritual" which is life.

 

[JonC]

Jon and David

please brothers the answers to these question might help

What does this passage mean? what kind of death does a man pass "from" to enter "into" what kind of life (eternal life?)?
Is a man born into this state of death?

NKJV
John 5:24 " Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Another interesting question is how one can have "spiritual life" yet be ignorant of good and evil.

If the Spirit opens our eyes to spiritual truth, then how did the Spirit fail Adam if he indeed was "spiritually alive"? The failure, ultimately, was on God (if that was the case) because His Spirit would have been worthless to Adam as He left Adam in ignorance.

 

[church mouse guy]

But no one is saying Adam was not spiritually dead. No one is saying death did not enter the world through Adam's sin and spread to mankind because all men have sinned.

You are taking up @davidtaylorjr 's play on words and entering strawman grounds.

David has ignored what Scripture does say about Adam (that Adam was created "flesh", a "living soul", "not spiritual" but "natural" and "upright") . Instead David has determined Adam was (contrary to 2 Corinthians 15) created "spiritually alive" and then "died spiritually" to become spiritually dead.

I understand the argument but it is biblically baseless.

No, I am not taking up anything from David Taylor. I gave you my own opinion. I don't understand what you are saying at all and I think that it is outside of the mainstream. And I don't know what you mean by 2 Corinthians 15.

Adam did sin. Sinners are spiritually dead.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

[HankD]

Another interesting question is how one can have "spiritual life" yet be ignorant of good and evil.

If the Spirit opens our eyes to spiritual truth, then how did the Spirit fail Adam if he indeed was "spiritually alive"? The failure, ultimately, was on God (if that was the case) because His Spirit would have been worthless to Adam as He left Adam in ignorance.

It seems that Adam decided for himself with full knowledge to choose the forbidden fruit.

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

 

[church mouse guy]

It seems that Adam decided for himself with full knowledge to choose the forbidden fruit.

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Luther said that Eve was the most sorrowful woman ever because she brought death into the world.

 

[AustinC]

No. Scripture teaches that Adam was natural man, a living soul. And yes, I have already shared that documentation. It is called "the Bible". In 2 Corinthians Paul tells us that Adam was created "natural man" and "not spiritual man". In The Bible (that big, often black, book) also tells us that Adam was created "flesh" and "not spirit". And in Genesis we read that Adam was created without his eyes being opened to the knowledge of good and evil (Spiritual life is described as a spirit "set on the Spirit", "walking in Light", not "ignorant of good and evil".

Do you have any documentation that presents Adam as being created "spiritually alive" and then "spiritually dying" (in fact, do you have any verse that says anyone has "experienced spiritually dying"? No, of course you do not. Scripture (again, the "Christian Bible") speaks of the spiritual as not subject to "corruption" and not subject to death.

Specific scripture please. 2 Corinthians 5?
Explain your theological position please.

 

[JonC]

Specific scripture please. 2 Corinthians 5?
Explain your theological position please.

First, the burden of proof is on you. You are wrong to ask others disprove Adam spiritually died in Genesis since it is simply absent Scripture.

I do not believe in lifting individual verses (Scripture is not designed that way).

So let's start here:

Do you deny Adam was created a "living soul", "flesh", a "natural man", "not a spiritual man"?

If so then we can look at each passage you reject.

But even more than that, can you provide a passage that states anyone has died spiritually or that life in the spirit is even subject to death????

 

[JonC]

It seems that Adam decided for himself with full knowledge to choose the forbidden fruit.

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Yet Scripture says his eyes were not opened to the knowledge of good and evil until he sinned. Perhaps 1 Timothy is not saying what you believe it is saying. Maybe Adam knew he was disobeying God but thought it would make him like God. If so maybe James doctrine of sin is a universal truth.

 

[HankD]

Yet Scripture says his eyes were not opened to the knowledge of good and evil until he sinned. Perhaps 1 Timothy is not saying what you believe it is saying. Maybe Adam knew he was disobeying God but thought it would make him like God. If so maybe James doctrine of sin is a universal truth.

Adam chose his wife over the commandment of God and actually blamed God for his sin via the wife HE had provided.

It was by innuendo but it looks like God was blamed.

Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

 

[JonC]

No, I am not taking up anything from David Taylor. I gave you my own opinion. I don't understand what you are saying at all and I think that it is outside of the mainstream. And I don't know what you mean by 2 Corinthians 15.

Adam did sin. Sinners are spiritually dead.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

What I am saying is mainstream but different from your opinion. I am saying Adam was created a natural rather than spiritual man (actually, Paul said it and I am repeating Paul).

Natural man is not by nature spiritually alive. This does not mean natural man was alive spiritually and then died spiritually (as while also a mainstream opinion it is foreign to the Bible).

 

[JonC]

Adam chose his wife over the commandment of God and actually blamed God for his sin via the wife HE had provided.

It was by innuendo but it looks like God was blamed.

Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Yep. But the fact Adam disobeyed God does not prove Adam was "spiritually alive" (perhaps it proves the opposite).

 

[HankD]

Yep. But the fact Adam disobeyed God does not prove Adam was "spiritually alive" (perhaps it proves the opposite).

Adam is/was a special case, he walked with and communed with God face-to-face.

 

[AustinC]

First, the burden of proof is on you. You are wrong to ask others disprove Adam spiritually died in Genesis since it is simply absent Scripture.

I do not believe in lifting individual verses (Scripture is not designed that way).

So let's start here:

Do you deny Adam was created a "living soul", "flesh", a "natural man", "not a spiritual man"?

If so then we can look at each passage you reject.

But even more than that, can you provide a passage that states anyone has died spiritually or that life in the spirit is even subject to death????

The burden is on you. Stop shirking your responsibility to provide biblical reference to your position.

 

[Reformed1689]

@JonC you keep saying that Adam was not spiritually alive, but acknowledge he was dead in sin after his sin. So what was he before he was dead? Just in some state of limbo?