Featured Faulty Logic, Faulty Theology

But no one is saying Adam was not spiritually dead. No one is saying death did not enter the world through Adam's sin and spread to mankind because all men have sinned.

You are taking up @davidtaylorjr 's play on words and entering strawman grounds.

David has ignored what Scripture does say about Adam (that Adam was created "flesh", a "living soul", "not spiritual" but "natural" and "upright") . Instead David has determined Adam was (contrary to 2 Corinthians 15) created "spiritually alive" and then "died spiritually" to become spiritually dead.

I understand the argument but it is biblically baseless.

 

He was not dead in sin prior to sinning. You are assuming this means God created him with "spiritual life" when Scripture says he was created "flesh", "a living soul", "upright", "natural" and NOT a "spiritual being".

I believe that God created Adam "flesh", "a living soul", a "natural man", "not a spiritual man", and "upright". When Adam sinned death entered the world. Adam (like all men) were dead in his sins and trespasses. He was not dead in his sins before he sinned. It was through his sin that death entered the world. All of that (to include Adam not being created a spiritual man but a natural man) is in Scripture.

We agree on the text of Scripture (that God told Adam on the day he ate of the fruit he would certainly/ surely die). We agree (I hope) that God created Adam "flesh", "natural man", a "living soul", "upright" but "not spiritual man" as this is in Scripture itself.

Where we disagree is that the text of Scripture seems complete and logical to me (it makes sense to me as it is stated) while you seem to see it as less than adequate to address the Fall. You continue by adding that Adam died spiritually the day he ate of the fruit, and physically later on with the emphasis being on this "spiritually dying" which is not actually mentioned in the Bible.

I do not accept what you are adding, but we can agree at least on what is actually in Scripture itself. There is no word for "spiritually dying" because it is a concept foreign to Scripture (in the Bible spiritual life never subject to death because it is spiritual and of God's spirit rather than natural and of the flesh).

 

No. Scripture teaches that Adam was natural man, a living soul. And yes, I have already shared that documentation. It is called "the Bible". In 2 Corinthians Paul tells us that Adam was created "natural man" and "not spiritual man". In The Bible (that big, often black, book) also tells us that Adam was created "flesh" and "not spirit". And in Genesis we read that Adam was created without his eyes being opened to the knowledge of good and evil (Spiritual life is described as a spirit "set on the Spirit", "walking in Light", not "ignorant of good and evil".

Do you have any documentation that presents Adam as being created "spiritually alive" and then "spiritually dying" (in fact, do you have any verse that says anyone has "experienced spiritually dying"? No, of course you do not. Scripture (again, the "Christian Bible") speaks of the spiritual as not subject to "corruption" and not subject to death.

 

I believe Scripture is saying that we move from the "natural" which is subject to death into the "spiritual" which is life.

 

Another interesting question is how one can have "spiritual life" yet be ignorant of good and evil.

If the Spirit opens our eyes to spiritual truth, then how did the Spirit fail Adam if he indeed was "spiritually alive"? The failure, ultimately, was on God (if that was the case) because His Spirit would have been worthless to Adam as He left Adam in ignorance.

 

First, the burden of proof is on you. You are wrong to ask others disprove Adam spiritually died in Genesis since it is simply absent Scripture.

I do not believe in lifting individual verses (Scripture is not designed that way).

So let's start here:

Do you deny Adam was created a "living soul", "flesh", a "natural man", "not a spiritual man"?

If so then we can look at each passage you reject.

But even more than that, can you provide a passage that states anyone has died spiritually or that life in the spirit is even subject to death????

 

Yet Scripture says his eyes were not opened to the knowledge of good and evil until he sinned. Perhaps 1 Timothy is not saying what you believe it is saying. Maybe Adam knew he was disobeying God but thought it would make him like God. If so maybe James doctrine of sin is a universal truth.

 

What I am saying is mainstream but different from your opinion. I am saying Adam was created a natural rather than spiritual man (actually, Paul said it and I am repeating Paul).

Natural man is not by nature spiritually alive. This does not mean natural man was alive spiritually and then died spiritually (as while also a mainstream opinion it is foreign to the Bible).

 

Yep. But the fact Adam disobeyed God does not prove Adam was "spiritually alive" (perhaps it proves the opposite).