Faulty Logic, Faulty Theology

[Yeshua1]

I believe Scripture is saying that we move from the "natural" which is subject to death into the "spiritual" which is life.

We are both right now, why not Adam when created by God?

 

[Yeshua1]

Sounds like Adam was a golem with no spirit in him, just a body and an empty soul.
I don't see the Bible references for the Adam as a golem theory. Would you be willing to share that documentation?
Golem | My Jewish Learning

God "breathed" life into Adam, so he was far more than that!

 

[Yeshua1]

Jon and David

please brothers the answers to these question might help

What does this passage mean? what kind of death does a man pass "from" to enter "into" what kind of life (eternal life?)?
Is a man born into this state of death?

NKJV
John 5:24 " Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

that person now has eternal life right now!

 

[Yeshua1]

First, the burden of proof is on you. You are wrong to ask others disprove Adam spiritually died in Genesis since it is simply absent Scripture.

I do not believe in lifting individual verses (Scripture is not designed that way).

So let's start here:

Do you deny Adam was created a "living soul", "flesh", a "natural man", "not a spiritual man"?

If so then we can look at each passage you reject.

But even more than that, can you provide a passage that states anyone has died spiritually or that life in the spirit is even subject to death????

Do you agree that Jesus had a humanity that was sinless in nature, while all of us here have sin natures?

 

[Yeshua1]

What I am saying is mainstream but different from your opinion. I am saying Adam was created a natural rather than spiritual man (actually, Paul said it and I am repeating Paul).

Natural man is not by nature spiritually alive. This does not mean natural man was alive spiritually and then died spiritually (as while also a mainstream opinion it is foreign to the Bible).

The reason why ALL save Jesus are born as sinners would be the fall, so before he fell, Adam did not have a sin nature, and hence, was spiritually alive to God!

 

[Yeshua1]

Where doe scripture say we are born sinners?
MB

David knew that he was conceived in sin and iniquity, and Apostle John saw us lost in darkness, and Paul told us all spiritually died in Adam, and spiritually alive in Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

I was actually offering Scripture. That is the difference. Scripture says Adam was created "upright", "flesh", "natural man", "not spiritual man", and "a living soul". That is not speculation. What Scripture does not say is that Adam was created "spiritual" (it in fact states the opposite) and died spiritually (it states that life in the spirit is eternal, not subject to death or corruption, not temporary, and not natural).

So no. There is a huge difference. You view Scripture as speculation and speculation as if it were Scripture.

This is called inferring/decucing, same process used to get the doctrine of the trinity!
Adam had no need to have a savior until ge sinned, Adam was in a right relationship with God, so had to be spiritually alive, as there is only spiritually alive or dead condition!
Bible also states the soul that sins must die , but Adam had committed no sin, so why would he have to physically even die?
Did Jesus have the same human nature when born as we do?

 

[church mouse guy]

Where doe scripture say we are born sinners?
MB

Why do we die?

 

[Yeshua1]

I was actually offering Scripture. That is the difference. Scripture says Adam was created "upright", "flesh", "natural man", "not spiritual man", and "a living soul". That is not speculation. What Scripture does not say is that Adam was created "spiritual" (it in fact states the opposite) and died spiritually (it states that life in the spirit is eternal, not subject to death or corruption, not temporary, and not natural).

So no. There is a huge difference. You view Scripture as speculation and speculation as if it were Scripture.

I was actually offering Scripture. That is the difference. Scripture says Adam was created "upright", "flesh", "natural man", "not spiritual man", and "a living soul". That is not speculation. What Scripture does not say is that Adam was created "spiritual" (it in fact states the opposite) and died spiritually (it states that life in the spirit is eternal, not subject to death or corruption, not temporary, and not natural).

So no. There is a huge difference. You view Scripture as speculation and speculation as if it were Scripture.

No, for you are redefining what it means to have spiritual life, and you are denying the full extent of the Fall of Adam!

 

[HankD]

Yep. But the fact Adam disobeyed God does not prove Adam was "spiritually alive" (perhaps it proves the opposite).

but God had looked and saw that His creation was very good BEFORE Adam sinned so perhaps something about Adam died when he chose to disobey.

 

[HankD]

Why do we die?

Rather - why do some babies die? If we are all innocent of sin at birth why do some babies die? what did they do?

 

[Yeshua1]

Rather - why do some babies die? If we are all innocent of sin at birth why do some babies die? what did they do?

Nothings, as its all part of the Curse of the fall towards mankind!

 

[Reformed1689]

You cannot have it both ways. Either Scripture is adequate or Adam must have been "spiritually alive" and experienced "spiritually dying".

Again, this has to do with how you define spiritually alive. I say Scripture teaches both that Adam was alive and then dead spiritually after the Fall.

 

[JonC]

Rather - why do some babies die? If we are all innocent of sin at birth why do some babies die? what did they do?

Not because of their sin but because they are subject to sin and death. Through Adam's sin death entered the world. Another similar issue is how Christ could have died without having himself sinned. It is because Christ became a curse for us, subjected Himself under the same bondage we suffered under. Our iniquities were laid upon Him and He shared in our "infirmity".

Like Scripture says, the natural man is first, then the spiritual man.

 

[JonC]

Again, this has to do with how you define spiritually alive. I say Scripture teaches both that Adam was alive and then dead spiritually after the Fall.

This is true. I only affirm one definition of being alive (spiritually speaking) and this is the only one actually stated in Scripture (the one that Paul states Adam did not have).

This is also where we disagree because I do not accept the introduction of "another type" of spiritual life. I believe Christ the Lamb crucified before the foundation of the earth, and I believe Christ the ONLY Life, none (including Adam) having a different kind of Life. That is why I sometimes push it by referring to your theory as "myth" - not because it is not accurate (it is by definition a myth build around what is actually stated in the Bible) but I know it's pushing things as many hold to that view.

 

[Reformed1689]

This is true. I only affirm one definition of being alive (spiritually speaking) and this is the only one actually stated in Scripture (the one that Paul states Adam did not have).

Actually, if I am not mistaken, Scripture doesn't use the term spiritually alive.

I believe Christ the Lamb crucified before the foundation of the earth, and I believe Christ the ONLY Life, none (including Adam) having a different kind of Life. That is why I sometimes push it by referring to your theory as "myth" - not because it is not accurate (it is by definition a myth build around what is actually stated in the Bible) but I know it's pushing things as many hold to that view.

Again, so does the Father not have life apart from the Son? Does He only exist and live because of the Son?

 

[Yeshua1]

Not because of their sin but because they are subject to sin and death. Through Adam's sin death entered the world. Another similar issue is how Christ could have died without having himself sinned. It is because Christ became a curse for us, subjected Himself under the same bondage we suffered under. Our iniquities were laid upon Him and He shared in our "infirmity".

Like Scripture says, the natural man is first, then the spiritual man.

the natural man has spiritual life right now though, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

This is true. I only affirm one definition of being alive (spiritually speaking) and this is the only one actually stated in Scripture (the one that Paul states Adam did not have).

This is also where we disagree because I do not accept the introduction of "another type" of spiritual life. I believe Christ the Lamb crucified before the foundation of the earth, and I believe Christ the ONLY Life, none (including Adam) having a different kind of Life. That is why I sometimes push it by referring to your theory as "myth" - not because it is not accurate (it is by definition a myth build around what is actually stated in the Bible) but I know it's pushing things as many hold to that view.

Spiritual life is relationship and communion with God, and Adam had that before he fell, as he did not need a messiah to have it established yet, as was already there!

 

[JonC]

Actually, if I am not mistaken, Scripture doesn't use the term spiritually alive.

Again, so does the Father not have life apart from the Son? Does He only exist and live because of the Son?

That is why I did not use the term "spiritually alive". Scripture does use "alive" and "life" in spiritual terms.

Are you sure that you believe it is appropriate to ask if this means the Father does not have life apart from the Son? That seems a bit desperate.

But in a sense, yes. Jesus says that He and the Father are One. I believe that to be a true statement. If you see the Son you see the Father, to know the Son is to know the Father, to have "Christ in you" is to have the "Spirit of God" in you.

I think it is very obvious that the idea Adam was "spiritually alive" and then "died spiritually" is not in the text of Scripture but is something that you have developed from Scripture as a whole. And that is fair. I believe it is wrong, but we all have to fill in the blanks when we see them. I just see no dots needing to be connected (so no need to "go where no verse has gone before".... ).

I will ask this David,

If the idea you are purposing, which is not actually in Scripture, is not true then how is your doctrine affected? In other words, If Adam did not have spiritual life and loose it by sinning and dying spiritually then what does that do to your theology?

 

[Reformed1689]

If the idea you are purposing, which is not actually in Scripture, is not true then how is your doctrine affected? In other words, If Adam did not have spiritual life and loose it by sinning and dying spiritually then what does that do to your theology?

Then Adam did not die on the day he ate of the fruit. I understand you reject that interpretation. But if he did not die on that day, remember this is how MANY people interpret it, then Scripture is false and in error. It unravels everything actually.

Not to mention, you have a major problem of why did Adam need a savior? How was he able to become dead in sin if he was never alive? Dead in sin is not a physical reality it is a spiritual reality.