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Featured Faulty Logic, Faulty Theology

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin Marprelate, Mar 1, 2020.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We are both right now, why not Adam when created by God?
     
    #81 Yeshua1, Mar 5, 2020
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God "breathed" life into Adam, so he was far more than that!
     
    #82 Yeshua1, Mar 5, 2020
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    that person now has eternal life right now!
     
    #83 Yeshua1, Mar 5, 2020
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Do you agree that Jesus had a humanity that was sinless in nature, while all of us here have sin natures?
     
    #84 Yeshua1, Mar 5, 2020
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The reason why ALL save Jesus are born as sinners would be the fall, so before he fell, Adam did not have a sin nature, and hence, was spiritually alive to God!
     
    #85 Yeshua1, Mar 5, 2020
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    David knew that he was conceived in sin and iniquity, and Apostle John saw us lost in darkness, and Paul told us all spiritually died in Adam, and spiritually alive in Christ!
     
    #86 Yeshua1, Mar 5, 2020
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    This is called inferring/decucing, same process used to get the doctrine of the trinity!
    Adam had no need to have a savior until ge sinned, Adam was in a right relationship with God, so had to be spiritually alive, as there is only spiritually alive or dead condition!
    Bible also states the soul that sins must die , but Adam had committed no sin, so why would he have to physically even die?
    Did Jesus have the same human nature when born as we do?
     
    #87 Yeshua1, Mar 5, 2020
  8. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Why do we die?
     
    #88 church mouse guy, Mar 5, 2020
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, for you are redefining what it means to have spiritual life, and you are denying the full extent of the Fall of Adam!
     
    #89 Yeshua1, Mar 5, 2020
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    but God had looked and saw that His creation was very good BEFORE Adam sinned so perhaps something about Adam died when he chose to disobey.
     
    #90 HankD, Mar 5, 2020
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Rather - why do some babies die? If we are all innocent of sin at birth why do some babies die? what did they do?
     
    #91 HankD, Mar 5, 2020
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  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Nothings, as its all part of the Curse of the fall towards mankind!
     
    #92 Yeshua1, Mar 5, 2020
  13. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Again, this has to do with how you define spiritually alive. I say Scripture teaches both that Adam was alive and then dead spiritually after the Fall.
     
    #93 Reformed1689, Mar 5, 2020
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  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Not because of their sin but because they are subject to sin and death. Through Adam's sin death entered the world. Another similar issue is how Christ could have died without having himself sinned. It is because Christ became a curse for us, subjected Himself under the same bondage we suffered under. Our iniquities were laid upon Him and He shared in our "infirmity".

    Like Scripture says, the natural man is first, then the spiritual man.
     
    #94 JonC, Mar 5, 2020
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This is true. I only affirm one definition of being alive (spiritually speaking) and this is the only one actually stated in Scripture (the one that Paul states Adam did not have).

    This is also where we disagree because I do not accept the introduction of "another type" of spiritual life. I believe Christ the Lamb crucified before the foundation of the earth, and I believe Christ the ONLY Life, none (including Adam) having a different kind of Life. That is why I sometimes push it by referring to your theory as "myth" - not because it is not accurate (it is by definition a myth build around what is actually stated in the Bible) but I know it's pushing things as many hold to that view.
     
    #95 JonC, Mar 5, 2020
  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Actually, if I am not mistaken, Scripture doesn't use the term spiritually alive.
    Again, so does the Father not have life apart from the Son? Does He only exist and live because of the Son?
     
    #96 Reformed1689, Mar 5, 2020
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the natural man has spiritual life right now though, correct?
     
    #97 Yeshua1, Mar 5, 2020
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Spiritual life is relationship and communion with God, and Adam had that before he fell, as he did not need a messiah to have it established yet, as was already there!
     
    #98 Yeshua1, Mar 5, 2020
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is why I did not use the term "spiritually alive". Scripture does use "alive" and "life" in spiritual terms.

    Are you sure that you believe it is appropriate to ask if this means the Father does not have life apart from the Son? That seems a bit desperate.

    But in a sense, yes. Jesus says that He and the Father are One. I believe that to be a true statement. If you see the Son you see the Father, to know the Son is to know the Father, to have "Christ in you" is to have the "Spirit of God" in you.

    I think it is very obvious that the idea Adam was "spiritually alive" and then "died spiritually" is not in the text of Scripture but is something that you have developed from Scripture as a whole. And that is fair. I believe it is wrong, but we all have to fill in the blanks when we see them. I just see no dots needing to be connected (so no need to "go where no verse has gone before"....:D ).

    I will ask this David,

    If the idea you are purposing, which is not actually in Scripture, is not true then how is your doctrine affected? In other words, If Adam did not have spiritual life and loose it by sinning and dying spiritually then what does that do to your theology?
     
    #99 JonC, Mar 5, 2020
  20. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Then Adam did not die on the day he ate of the fruit. I understand you reject that interpretation. But if he did not die on that day, remember this is how MANY people interpret it, then Scripture is false and in error. It unravels everything actually.

    Not to mention, you have a major problem of why did Adam need a savior? How was he able to become dead in sin if he was never alive? Dead in sin is not a physical reality it is a spiritual reality.
     
    #100 Reformed1689, Mar 5, 2020
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