I know the Bible says somewhere, I don't know the verse, to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Does that mean that we have to work to keep it? I know faith without works is dead... I've been reading and am just a bit confused about it and want to know more opinions.
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fear and trembling
- Thread starter Dustin
- Start date
Philippians 2:12-13 - "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
It isn't saying that you have to work to keep salvation. Salvation is what God works in you, and you then work it out in your relationships and all of the things that you do. Does that make sense?
It isn't saying that you have to work to keep salvation. Salvation is what God works in you, and you then work it out in your relationships and all of the things that you do. Does that make sense?
Dustin, it's in Phillipians 2:12 and reading on to verse 13 will help you.
This passage is from Paul to the christians at Phillipi.
Paul tells them in verse 12 of chapter two that they have always behaved like christians should behave when he was with them.
Now, he wants them to continue to behave like Godly people in his absence from them.
"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling".
To me, this means to continue to serve the Lord in a reverent and respectful manner, acknowledging that apart from him, that we can do nothing.
Verse 13 explains it more. Paul says that when we behave as christians should that it is GOD working through us anyway, our own "works" as obedient christians are directed by God, Himself.
We should as obedient christians, should be highly sensitive to that and highly respectful of that.
"fear and trembling" respect and reverence before God who loves and wants to work through us.
Peace-
Scarlett O.
<><
This passage is from Paul to the christians at Phillipi.
Paul tells them in verse 12 of chapter two that they have always behaved like christians should behave when he was with them.
Now, he wants them to continue to behave like Godly people in his absence from them.
"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling".
To me, this means to continue to serve the Lord in a reverent and respectful manner, acknowledging that apart from him, that we can do nothing.
Verse 13 explains it more. Paul says that when we behave as christians should that it is GOD working through us anyway, our own "works" as obedient christians are directed by God, Himself.
We should as obedient christians, should be highly sensitive to that and highly respectful of that.
"fear and trembling" respect and reverence before God who loves and wants to work through us.
Peace-
Scarlett O.
<><
Years ago I read that as IF you try to work out your own salvation (save yourself apart from Christ), guess what? You'll be fearing and trembling!
Dummy that I was.
Contextually, it can't be read that way, since Paul is talking to the converted. Fear and trembling (reverend awe before the Most High God) is applicable to every Christian.
Ryrie interprets it to mean that they must learn to stand on their own two feet, well-aware of their own human frailty, but knowing that God was there for them.
Dummy that I was.
Contextually, it can't be read that way, since Paul is talking to the converted. Fear and trembling (reverend awe before the Most High God) is applicable to every Christian.
Ryrie interprets it to mean that they must learn to stand on their own two feet, well-aware of their own human frailty, but knowing that God was there for them.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
You, I agree. The "work out" is just what it says it is, a working out of our salvation, in fear and trembling at our inadequacy apart from Him..
We work out physically and we work out spiritually.
Fear and trembling comes about by not working your salvation out and while you are in the process of so doing. If you have reached the point where you have worked out your salvation then you would no longer tremble because There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18
Whoever calls on the Name of the Lord is saved once and forever.
I take His love for granted and stand in awe.It is saying the opposite Dustin, if one must depend on their own effort then fear and trembling must be one's lot. I trust Christ to keep me and transform me and being confident of this, that he who began a good work in me will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Php 1:6.
I have worked it out and I testify that once the Son makes you free you are free.
john.
Okay, as far as I know, I may be the only one on the planet who interprets this passage the way I do. But here goes:
Here's the problem I have with this verse. "Work out your own salvation...for (because) it is God who works in you, both to will and to work". This seems like a complete contradiction to me. [You] work it out...because it is God who does it? Huh?
I don't know that this is the correct interpretation, but I have always wondered if Paul was saying, "If you think you can work out your own salvation, then do so with fear and trembing, because it isn't you, it is God who works in you to will and to work according to HIS good pleasure."
I think the only way we could know if this is accurate is if we knew what this meant:
Unfortunately, we can't go back in time and see the disposition of the Philippians, or the relationship between them and Paul. Perhaps he went over this very point with the Philippians in more detail, and found that they understood it. But there seems to be a "in the know" going on here between Paul and his audience. Unfortunately, we're not "in the know".
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
I don't see the distinction. "Work it out in your relationships and all of the things that you do" is doing something. I agree with this statement but not with your conclusion. The verse says exactly what it seems to say. Salvation requires ongoing effort. Is that really any different than what you said?
I don't see the distinction. "Work it out in your relationships and all of the things that you do" is doing something. I agree with this statement but not with your conclusion. The verse says exactly what it seems to say. Salvation requires ongoing effort. Is that really any different than what you said? </font>[/QUOTE]It's a command. It does not say what are the consequences of disobeying. Why do you assume that the consequences of disobeying include loss of salvation?
Calvibaptist
New Member
Here's my take as a Calvinist...(had to get that in there!)
Justification is monergistic. We do nothing to be saved. Even the repentance and faith that we exercise is a gift from God.
BUT, sanctification is synergistic. We have certain things to do - in this passage, obedience. We have to do that. We have to persevere or we are not finally saved. This is the only way to make sense of the warning in this passage (fear and trembling) and the other passages written to those who claim to be saved.
The way I ended that last sentence is very important. Not everyone who claims to be saved is saved. The local church is full of tares as well as wheat. Those who claim to be saved, yet to not have fruit, are not really saved, and will be burned.
Those who are saved have God working in them both to desire (will) good works and to do them. So, on one hand, we are responsible for it. But on the other hand, God does it.
Those who are truly saved will have good works at the judgment because they are "wrought in God." Those who are unsaved, no matter what their claim, will have bad works at the judgment. This is why the Bible says that salvation (justification) is by faith, but final judgment is by works.
Glorification is monergistic. There is nothing we do (except maybe die) that has anything to do with this. It is all a work of God.
Those who God begins the work of salvation in unfailingly make it to the end. In the meantime, we are to work out our own salvation, and thus, "make our call and election sure." (2 Peter 1:10)
Justification is monergistic. We do nothing to be saved. Even the repentance and faith that we exercise is a gift from God.
BUT, sanctification is synergistic. We have certain things to do - in this passage, obedience. We have to do that. We have to persevere or we are not finally saved. This is the only way to make sense of the warning in this passage (fear and trembling) and the other passages written to those who claim to be saved.
The way I ended that last sentence is very important. Not everyone who claims to be saved is saved. The local church is full of tares as well as wheat. Those who claim to be saved, yet to not have fruit, are not really saved, and will be burned.
Those who are saved have God working in them both to desire (will) good works and to do them. So, on one hand, we are responsible for it. But on the other hand, God does it.
Those who are truly saved will have good works at the judgment because they are "wrought in God." Those who are unsaved, no matter what their claim, will have bad works at the judgment. This is why the Bible says that salvation (justification) is by faith, but final judgment is by works.
Glorification is monergistic. There is nothing we do (except maybe die) that has anything to do with this. It is all a work of God.
Those who God begins the work of salvation in unfailingly make it to the end. In the meantime, we are to work out our own salvation, and thus, "make our call and election sure." (2 Peter 1:10)
StraightandNarrow.....
"working it out in our relationships and all that we do" could perhaps also be stated as we let our salvation work through us to the outside.....don't let it stop in our own spirit but let it be seen by having good works. That isn't saying that those good works attain or keep our salvation.
Actually Ive always seen this verse as saying that we "figure" out what a great and awesome gift salvation is. When we begin to see it truly than there is definitely fear and trembling.
"working it out in our relationships and all that we do" could perhaps also be stated as we let our salvation work through us to the outside.....don't let it stop in our own spirit but let it be seen by having good works. That isn't saying that those good works attain or keep our salvation.
Actually Ive always seen this verse as saying that we "figure" out what a great and awesome gift salvation is. When we begin to see it truly than there is definitely fear and trembling.
We started talking about this in the other denominations thread a little bit.
What we have to remember is the Bible speaks of salvation in different manners. Unfortunately most of Christianity has pooled all salvation verses into salvation by grace through faith. However there is a salvation for the spiritually dead and then there is a salvation for the spiritually alive. And we must keep these two separate to avoid confusion.
To the dead man the only salvation that is available to him is salvation by grace through faith. Christ dying to pay the penalty for sin on the cross.
Once that has been dealt with and the Holy Spirit has breathed life into that individual (made them alive spiritually - eternal salvation)then the salvation turns from the spirit to the soul (Bible talks about salvation of the soul - which is temporal).
There is nothing one can do for eternal salvation other than believe on Christ and His actions. Once that is done that person is eternally secure, because it is an act of the Holy Spirit that is produced not an act of man.
The salvation of the soul has to do with the coming 1,000-year kingdom in which Christ will rule and reign over the earth. We are to work out our salvation in regard to either participating in that kingdom or not participating in that kingdom.
To participate one must be found faithful (having worked out their salvation), while there are others that will unfortunately be found unfaithful.
Works are essential in the sanctification process. We must be obedient.
What we have to remember is the Bible speaks of salvation in different manners. Unfortunately most of Christianity has pooled all salvation verses into salvation by grace through faith. However there is a salvation for the spiritually dead and then there is a salvation for the spiritually alive. And we must keep these two separate to avoid confusion.
To the dead man the only salvation that is available to him is salvation by grace through faith. Christ dying to pay the penalty for sin on the cross.
Once that has been dealt with and the Holy Spirit has breathed life into that individual (made them alive spiritually - eternal salvation)then the salvation turns from the spirit to the soul (Bible talks about salvation of the soul - which is temporal).
There is nothing one can do for eternal salvation other than believe on Christ and His actions. Once that is done that person is eternally secure, because it is an act of the Holy Spirit that is produced not an act of man.
The salvation of the soul has to do with the coming 1,000-year kingdom in which Christ will rule and reign over the earth. We are to work out our salvation in regard to either participating in that kingdom or not participating in that kingdom.
To participate one must be found faithful (having worked out their salvation), while there are others that will unfortunately be found unfaithful.
Works are essential in the sanctification process. We must be obedient.
For eternal purposes those that are unfaithful will still be in God's presence for all eternity. They will not participate in the rule and reign of Christ for the 1,000 years.
In my studies to this point the Bible points to that time as a learning period if you will so that once eternity begins they will have a full understanding of what God wants them to do so that once eternity begins they are no longer in rebellion, but in complete cooperation like they were supposed to be in the first place.
In my studies to this point the Bible points to that time as a learning period if you will so that once eternity begins they will have a full understanding of what God wants them to do so that once eternity begins they are no longer in rebellion, but in complete cooperation like they were supposed to be in the first place.
J. Jump, please don't be offended, but this is why I'm starting to back away from dispensationism in general. You wind up with people that Christ died to justify being held accountable for sin.
(the following bible verses are from my poor memory"
"Who shall lay ANY THING to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." Rom 8
The trying of our faith takes place in THIS LIFE.
"For it is God who works in you both to do and to will of his good pleasure." Phil 2?
We learn obedience now.
"For no chastisement for the present time seemeth to be joyous; but afterwards it yieldeth the peacable fruits of righteousness" Heb 11 or 12?
Looks like you've got us under Law in the mil.
"For Christ is the END of the law to everyone that believeth." Romans?
(the following bible verses are from my poor memory"
"Who shall lay ANY THING to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." Rom 8
The trying of our faith takes place in THIS LIFE.
"For it is God who works in you both to do and to will of his good pleasure." Phil 2?
We learn obedience now.
"For no chastisement for the present time seemeth to be joyous; but afterwards it yieldeth the peacable fruits of righteousness" Heb 11 or 12?
Looks like you've got us under Law in the mil.
"For Christ is the END of the law to everyone that believeth." Romans?
Unfortunately the Bible tells us that not all will learn obedience in this life . . . reference the parable of the talents, pounds, virgins.
Not under the Law, but we are still required to follow Christ's commandments. There are several references to that, especially in I John.
You can also see this in the foot washing story. Peter said he wasn't going to allow Jesus to wash him and Jesus said that if he didn't then he would have no part with Him. Peter said then wash all of me and Jesus said not all needs to be washed, just parts.
It's the same today. We can either let Jesus periodically clense us with His blood that flows from the mercy seat as He acts on our behalf as High Priest or we can deny Him that opportunity to wash us and there will be parts that are unclean.
Death does not automatically do away with sin that is undealt with.
By the way no offense taken
It is not my job to convince anyone that anything I believe is true. That is up to the Holy Spirit thank goodness. God's blessings to you as you study His Word!
Not under the Law, but we are still required to follow Christ's commandments. There are several references to that, especially in I John.
You can also see this in the foot washing story. Peter said he wasn't going to allow Jesus to wash him and Jesus said that if he didn't then he would have no part with Him. Peter said then wash all of me and Jesus said not all needs to be washed, just parts.
It's the same today. We can either let Jesus periodically clense us with His blood that flows from the mercy seat as He acts on our behalf as High Priest or we can deny Him that opportunity to wash us and there will be parts that are unclean.
Death does not automatically do away with sin that is undealt with.
By the way no offense taken
Brother Bob
New Member
Hebrews, chapter 12
"6": For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
"7": If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
"8": But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
"9": Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
I don't know a child of God who never does any wrong and we have a Heavenly Father who corrects us with chastement, and we know it, as a matter of fact, it is a witness that we are a child of God so we dread the chastement but yet we love our Heavenly Father as we loved our natural father (only more). And that is why we work out our salvation with fear and trembling.