Asking that question seems to infer that I hold the verses to be limited to salvation, which is not the case. My intended point, however poorly stated, was that the verses said little or nothing about the complementary roles of men and women, and everything about their equality of standing.
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Female pastor - (a serious discussion)
- Thread starter Salty
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Though God has chosen not to include precise details in His perfect scripture, each of the synoptic Gospels appears to describe Jesus ministering separately to children. (Matt:19:13,14; Mark 10:13,14; Luke 18:16) Furthermore, in both Hebrews 5 and 1 Peter 2, a distinction is made between teachings appropriate for the newly saved (or "babes") and those with a higher level of spiritual maturity - "milk" versus "strong meat." While those do not constitute a dogmatic mandate for separate Sunday school classes, they certainly seem to allow the concept. God also has chosen to provide only the very least details of a worship service, the day of the week (though Romans 14 even offers possible modification of that) and description of a few activities that were included at that time. When interpreting scripture, I think that one should recognize the difference between description and prescription, God telling us what did happen and God telling us what should happen. God allows Christian liberty, as Paul explains, and I think God expects us to use that liberty both carefully and intelligently.
I'll also toss out that arguments from silence, used by many in this thread, are also a form of human reasoning and thus must be employed - if at all - with great care.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
But you do not find any of this as NT church practice.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Food and clothing is very present in scripture, and transportation. But today's typical church service is not.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Seems to me like you are splitting hairs there. Church services are found in Scripture but you want them to look today just like they did then, but you don't expect the same for food and transportation. Doesn't hold water.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Just sayin' we should not add human "ingenuity" to the biblical model of Church.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
And what is the biblical model of a Church service? I've asked for this several times and you have not provided it.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If you read through Acts, the cottage prayer meeting today is closer to the early home church than anything else today.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
And where is the mandate that is how it is to be done? Chapter and Verse. You are formulating a whole doctrine without base.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The challenge is to find today's example of a typical church in Acts. The Amish have the closest model that I know of today. They all work, meet at a house for worship and teaching, kids and all. Share meals and live the Sermon on the Mount.
Do they teach saved by grace alone thru faith alone though? Sem to be somewhat work oriented!
So are you but it's dangerous. Eternally so.
That's not in the Bible.
But I am not wrong.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Agreed, my apologies for my part of the derailment.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Female pastors...
No.
I know of no where in God's word where a woman was ever shown as being an overseer ( pastor ) to a group of believers.
God does not task or hold women responsible for this office, only men.
The same with deacons.
Men hold the offices, and I firmly believe that not only is it a picture of "headship", it is a matter of God choosing to hold men, not women, responsible.
He declared the order of things in 1 Corinthians 11:3 and Ephesians 5:22-28.
As the "head" of the family, men are by "nature" given more difficult duties...
The same, I believe, with the church offices.
He had Paul tell the Corinthians that women are to be silent in the church ( 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 ), not to shame them, but I firmly believe it was because God has decided that is how He wants it.
Now, this is the comment I'll likely take flak for:
It has something to do with the role Adam and Eve played in the Garden...Eve was deceived, while Adam went into it "face first".
Whether or not that means the Lord does not trust women in these roles ( especially teaching ) because women may be more "easily deceived", I seriously doubt ( and I've heard rubbish like this before, believe me ), but I defer to Him holding men responsible because I see Adam being more culpable for the sin.
1 Timothy 2:8-15 has Paul telling Timothy about how the church is to conduct things...especially in regards to teaching.
1 Timothy 3:1-15 is specific, and Titus 2:1-6 has a few details as well.
I think this should be enough for any true Bible believer.
To me, any group that recognizes women as pastors or even as teaching the Bible, should look again.
If that offends anyone, I didn't write His book, so take it up with Him.
Ladies, if you wish to serve the Lord, He says to do that in context with His declarations.
Raising children, teaching the younger women to be godly, etc.
There are other ways outside the "offices" to do so.
No.
I know of no where in God's word where a woman was ever shown as being an overseer ( pastor ) to a group of believers.
God does not task or hold women responsible for this office, only men.
The same with deacons.
Men hold the offices, and I firmly believe that not only is it a picture of "headship", it is a matter of God choosing to hold men, not women, responsible.
He declared the order of things in 1 Corinthians 11:3 and Ephesians 5:22-28.
As the "head" of the family, men are by "nature" given more difficult duties...
The same, I believe, with the church offices.
He had Paul tell the Corinthians that women are to be silent in the church ( 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 ), not to shame them, but I firmly believe it was because God has decided that is how He wants it.
Now, this is the comment I'll likely take flak for:
It has something to do with the role Adam and Eve played in the Garden...Eve was deceived, while Adam went into it "face first".
Whether or not that means the Lord does not trust women in these roles ( especially teaching ) because women may be more "easily deceived", I seriously doubt ( and I've heard rubbish like this before, believe me ), but I defer to Him holding men responsible because I see Adam being more culpable for the sin.
1 Timothy 2:8-15 has Paul telling Timothy about how the church is to conduct things...especially in regards to teaching.
1 Timothy 3:1-15 is specific, and Titus 2:1-6 has a few details as well.
I think this should be enough for any true Bible believer.
To me, any group that recognizes women as pastors or even as teaching the Bible, should look again.
If that offends anyone, I didn't write His book, so take it up with Him.
Ladies, if you wish to serve the Lord, He says to do that in context with His declarations.
Raising children, teaching the younger women to be godly, etc.
There are other ways outside the "offices" to do so.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
So...
Out of all that, what am I stating, you may ask?
I'm convinced, thus far, that because of the Fall of Adam and Eve, God is tasking us men with the more difficult and responsible duties within the body of Christ, leaving the ladies with the easier stuff.
Ladies, do you think you have it "bad"?
I realize that having children and raising them isn't any "walk in the park" for you...
But try not only being the one the Lord holds responsible for the welfare of the family, but then having the added duty of being held responsible for watching over someone's spiritual health in the body, teaching them the correct doctrine ( because teachers will be held more accountable than non-teachers...see James 3:1 ) or serving the body's widows and sick by cutting their grass, fixing the plumbing and electrical, taking out their trash, and then having to come home and do that stuff as well for his own family.
...and answering to God for it.
It's double duty, and those offices within the church should not to be taken or exercised lightly.
Out of all that, what am I stating, you may ask?
I'm convinced, thus far, that because of the Fall of Adam and Eve, God is tasking us men with the more difficult and responsible duties within the body of Christ, leaving the ladies with the easier stuff.
Ladies, do you think you have it "bad"?
I realize that having children and raising them isn't any "walk in the park" for you...
But try not only being the one the Lord holds responsible for the welfare of the family, but then having the added duty of being held responsible for watching over someone's spiritual health in the body, teaching them the correct doctrine ( because teachers will be held more accountable than non-teachers...see James 3:1 ) or serving the body's widows and sick by cutting their grass, fixing the plumbing and electrical, taking out their trash, and then having to come home and do that stuff as well for his own family.
...and answering to God for it.
It's double duty, and those offices within the church should not to be taken or exercised lightly.
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
I don't think they understand sin and grace as Calvinists do. But I can find their manner of Church practice in Acts. Only in Acts it is in more of a city setting instead of a rural setting.
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