Finding Qualified Young Pastors

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I live West on I80… several years ago now most of the Baptist churches began to change their names in an effort to entice the RC’s to join. Pathetic. The Methodists, Presbyterians & Episcopals all went liberal, then Woke, then closed their doors. There are still some Lutherans but not many. There is an OPC and they still attract very Orthodox Presbys but that’s slow now. We still have plenty of RC’s of different varieties if you happen to be Polish. Greek, Irish, Italian or blended. There is one big woke Methodist church here who has even started a Saturday mass like service to draw in Catholics (can you imagine)!

BTW… I’m only here because my beloved wife gets top notch care by a team of oncologists at a hospital around the corner from me And if they have questions they consult with Sloan Kettering. Literally, it’s keeping her going and that’s a blessing. God be praised.

 

[Van]

One of the jobs of Christian ministry is "baptizing for the dead." 1 Corinthians 15:29

Thus our local churches should raise up believers to carry on the ministry.

Have we failed to set an example such that the young see it as their goal in life. Or have we been corrupt, setting examples that the young abhor?

If the young are taught by the virtual reality of their culture, that Christianity is bogus, that Christ did not actually arise from the dead, then why engage in delusion?

 

[37818]

One of the jobs of Christian ministry is "baptizing for the dead." 1 Corinthians 15:29

The Apostle Paul was mocking those who denied the general resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:12-17, Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. . . .

Romans 6:3, Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

 

[Van]

The Apostle Paul was mocking those who denied the general resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:12-17, Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. . . .

Romans 6:3, Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Paul's inspired text had nothing to do with the "general resurrection of the dead." If Christ is not risen, then our faith is in vain.

 

[37818]

Paul's inspired text had nothing to do with the "general resurrection of the dead." If Christ is not risen, then our faith is in vain.

We disagree.
The text 1 Corinthians 15:12, . . . how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

 

[Van]

We disagree.
The text 1 Corinthians 15:12, . . . how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Yes, we certainly and absolutely disagree.

The resurrection of the dead in view in 1 Corinthians 15:12 is the resurrection to life, not the "general resurrection."

1 Corinthians 15:3-11 presents the ironclad evidence Christ arose from the dead, enumerating His many appearances after His crucifixion. In the next passage, 1 Corinthians 15:13 clear says Christ is included in the "resurrection of the dead" necessarily referring to the resurrection to life, but not necessarily referring to the resurrection to death. The the central point of the passage is put forth, If Christ is not raised, our faith is in vain. Full Stop

 

[37818]

Yes, we certainly and absolutely disagree.

The resurrection of the dead in view in 1 Corinthians 15:12 is the resurrection to life, not the "general resurrection."

1 Corinthians 15:3-11 presents the ironclad evidence Christ arose from the dead, enumerating His many appearances after His crucifixion. In the next passage, 1 Corinthians 15:13 clear says Christ is included in the "resurrection of the dead" necessarily referring to the resurrection to life, but not necessarily referring to the resurrection to death. The the central point of the passage is put forth, If Christ is not raised, our faith is in vain. Full Stop

That discussion is 1 Corinthians 15:12-19, which continues with 1 Corinthians 15:29-30,
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

And we do not agree on that. 1 Corinthians 15:12-19, 1 Corinthians 15:29-30.



Because Christ is raised,

1 Corinthians 15:20-28, But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Van]

SNIP
And we do not agree on that.
SNIP
.

Yes, we have two different understandings!

The resurrection of the dead in view in 1 Corinthians 15:12 is the resurrection to life, not the "general resurrection."

1 Corinthians 15:3-11 presents the ironclad evidence Christ arose from the dead, enumerating His many appearances after His crucifixion. In the next passage, 1 Corinthians 15:13 clear says Christ is included in the "resurrection of the dead" necessarily referring to the resurrection to life, but not necessarily referring to the resurrection to death. The the central point of the passage is put forth, If Christ is not raised, our faith is in vain. Full Stop

 

[Craigbythesea]

As a "boomer", I recall many young men of my era in Bible College/Seminary training to be pastors. Many of those freshly-scrubbed faces served 35-45-55 years for our Savior. But WE are "aging out" in great numbers (I retired from full-time pastoring in 2021 at age 73 after a stroke). At the same time, I see many of our fundamental Baptist schools closing and those that are still training our students have LOW numbers in the pastor, mission, youth pastor ministries majors.

All that Woodrow Kroll (of Back to the Bible fame) spoke of in "The Vanishing Ministry" is coming to fruition, in spades. In our state (Wisconsin where Baptists are small minority), we have been praying for 15+ Baptist churches right now that cannot get a pastor.

Am I in a bubble, or is this need for qualified/dedicated men a pandemic across America? If so, I might start some threads on how we might assist the calling, preparation, mentoring, and implementing more ministers to fill the gap as our older generation marches rapidly to heaven.

This is no longer an age of excusable ignorance. Every young man whom God is calling into the pastoral ministry today has ready access to the internet and an amazing wealth of information and knowledge that such young men had previously been deprived of. They are no longer content with fundamentalist Baptist colleges and seminaries that have refused to value fine and contemporary biblical and secular scholarship but instead ignorantly demonize it. Furthermore, such young men, when they get an excellent education, avoid like the plague fundamentalist Baptist churches that commingle with the gospel a bitter hatred for science and the men and women who are devoting their lives through science to improve the quality of our lives. Indeed, it is being said today from the best of our pulpits that young earth creationism is today’s greatest threat to evangelical Christianity—and they have the statistics to support that assertion.

Tens of millions of young people in the United States today are aware that the evidence for a very old earth is immense, and when they are mistakenly told that the Bible teaches that the earth is no more than 10,000 years old, they “know” that the Bible is NOT a trust worthy source of information and they reject it along with the Christ that it proclaims! When our Christian gospel is contaminated, it loses its power to save and becomes a vehicle for destruction. Christian colleges and seminaries that value fine and contemporary biblical and secular scholarship are providing us with the most well prepared pastors that the church has ever seen.

 

[xlsdraw]

This is no longer an age of excusable ignorance. Every young man whom God is calling into the pastoral ministry today has ready access to the internet and an amazing wealth of information and knowledge that such young men had previously been deprived of. They are no longer content with fundamentalist Baptist colleges and seminaries that have refused to value fine and contemporary biblical and secular scholarship but instead ignorantly demonize it. Furthermore, such young men, when they get an excellent education, avoid like the plague fundamentalist Baptist churches that commingle with the gospel a bitter hatred for science and the men and women who are devoting their lives through science to improve the quality of our lives. Indeed, it is being said today from the best of our pulpits that young earth creationism is today’s greatest threat to evangelical Christianity—and they have the statistics to support that assertion.

Tens of millions of young people in the United States today are aware that the evidence for a very old earth is immense, and when they are mistakenly told that the Bible teaches that the earth is no more than 10,000 years old, they “know” that the Bible is NOT a trust worthy source of information and they reject it along with the Christ that it proclaims! When our Christian gospel is contaminated, it loses its power to save and becomes a vehicle for destruction. Christian colleges and seminaries that value fine and contemporary biblical and secular scholarship are providing us with the most well prepared pastors that the church has ever seen.

The vanity you spew was prophesied to come. Us Old Paths believers will be leaving soon. You can have your New Age, but you won't enjoy it for long.

 

[Van]

This is no longer an age of excusable ignorance. Every young man whom God is calling into the pastoral ministry today has ready access to the internet and an amazing wealth of information and knowledge that such young men had previously been deprived of. They are no longer content with fundamentalist Baptist colleges and seminaries that have refused to value fine and contemporary biblical and secular scholarship but instead ignorantly demonize it. Furthermore, such young men, when they get an excellent education, avoid like the plague fundamentalist Baptist churches that commingle with the gospel a bitter hatred for science and the men and women who are devoting their lives through science to improve the quality of our lives. Indeed, it is being said today from the best of our pulpits that young earth creationism is today’s greatest threat to evangelical Christianity—and they have the statistics to support that assertion.

Tens of millions of young people in the United States today are aware that the evidence for a very old earth is immense, and when they are mistakenly told that the Bible teaches that the earth is no more than 10,000 years old, they “know” that the Bible is NOT a trust worthy source of information and they reject it along with the Christ that it proclaims! When our Christian gospel is contaminated, it loses its power to save and becomes a vehicle for destruction. Christian colleges and seminaries that value fine and contemporary biblical and secular scholarship are providing us with the most well prepared pastors that the church has ever seen.

Interesting assertion.
Does the Bible teach the earth was formed less than 10 thousand years ago?

Does the Bible teach the earth was formed more that 4 billion years ago?

Does the Bible teach we were not present at the formation, and therefore do not know when it occurred?

The Bible teaches we are not to add to what God says, and we are not to take away or nullify what God says. We are not to cling to traditions that make God's word to no effect.

 

[John of Japan]

Back to the OP, there is a similar problem in other countries. Japan right now has such a dearth of pastorals that they have coined a new term for it, muboku (無牧), meaning of course "no pastor." We have a former CEO in our seminary who is planning to go back to his country to evangelize, plant churches, and train new pastors.

As Dr. Bob noted, many schools have gone out of business (a couple this year) or are currently struggling. Those fundamentalist schools still in business are turning more and more to other degrees: nursing, business, etc.

Where I teach is called Baptist College of Ministry and Seminary, and we don't have all those professional degrees. Everyone is a Bible major, and the minors are pastoral, missionary, evangelist, music and education. This is what the world needs now, more than new Christian businessmen.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Where I teach is called Baptist College of Ministry and Seminary, and we don't have all those professional degrees. Everyone is a Bible major, and the minors are pastoral, missionary, evangelist, music and education. This is what the world needs now, more than new Christian businessmen.

Do you know an approx breakdown of student body this fall in each of these minors? As a "neighbor" 45 minutes away, I have heard talk, but would like a thumbnail guess that works for me.
pastoral = ___%
missionary = ___%
evangelist = ___%
music = ___%
education = ___%

 

[John of Japan]

Do you know an approx breakdown of student body this fall in each of these minors? As a "neighbor" 45 minutes away, I have heard talk, but would like a thumbnail guess that works for me.
pastoral = ___%
missionary = ___%
evangelist = ___%
music = ___%
education = ___%

I can guess based on my teaching. The women seem to be evenly distributed between music and education. And probably all of them want the hubby degree.

Out of about 50 men in undergrad, about 8-10 are in the evangelist minor, about 8-10 in the missionary minor, and maybe 20-25 pastoral. Any others are music or education, though I'm pretty sure almost none are education. I've talked to several men music minors.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Thanks, brother. Their mission program gets a big thumbs up from any I talk to. When I taught at Pillsbury BBC in the late 90's we had a veteran missionary (Duane Clapp, Uruguay) teaching. Good man and good program, but little interest in the student body. Think all of our "surviving" IFB schools should deeply impress the mission program into campus life and ministry goals.

That said, both my boys were Business Majors at Maranatha Baptist University. Both pastors (one ordained GARBC and one SBC). With the 45 credit general Bible core for every student at MBU and growing up in as PK's, they had good foundation despite missing pastoral major classes. Guess they learned them by osmosis from me as an "always talking" Dad!!

 

[John of Japan]

Thanks, brother. Their mission program gets a big thumbs up from any I talk to. When I taught at Pillsbury BBC in the late 90's we had a veteran missionary (Duane Clapp, Uruguay) teaching. Good man and good program, but little interest in the student body. Think all of our "surviving" IFB schools should deeply impress the mission program into campus life and ministry goals.

We knew the Clapps years ago. I'm afraid we're back to little interest in missions in most of our schools. We do make a big deal of missions thanks to our missions pastor, Mark Gilllmore, who has been all over the world. He took his whole family to PNG for 6 months. In the meantime, Pastor Van Gelderen has been to about 44 countries--used to be involved in Russian missions in particular, Georgie Vins board. Right now 7 of our grads are on deputation, with another ready to go. So I'm thrilled to teach missions here, among other subjects.

That said, both my boys were Business Majors at Maranatha Baptist University. Both pastors (one ordained GARBC and one SBC). With the 45 credit general Bible core for every student at MBU and growing up in as PK's, they had good foundation despite missing pastoral major classes. Guess they learned them by osmosis from me as an "always talking" Dad!!

Praise the Lord for your sons. Great testimony!

My own son (just had one kid) teaches here with me and is a constant joy. We recently finally became grandparents after he married a German girl after he turned 42. He's a Maranatha grad, then we both got our MAs together in 2005. That was a lot of fun. Took classes together and befuddled the profs, including our old friend Fred Moritz. Paul then went to Calvary seminary in PA for the MDiv, then Southeastern BTS for the PhD

 

[Craigbythesea]

The vanity you spew was prophesied to come. Us Old Paths believers will be leaving soon. You can have your New Age, but you won't enjoy it for long.

My post was not about me! It was about current failing in our fundamentalist Baptist Churches and the fundamentalist Baptist colleges and seminaries that are directly responsible for these failings. Furthermore, my post was based upon well-documented facts that you did not even bother to attempt to refute. Your post is nothing but hateful, malicious, and libelous lies!

I am a conservative, evangelical Baptist pastor and teacher with no ties whatsoever to New Age philosophy and the related rubbish. Yet I see that a BB member has rated your post “Agree.” Such shamefulness does not belong on message boards, and especially not on Christian message boards. What an abomination!

We have today some excellent Baptist colleges, seminaries, and Universities that need and deserve or support. Let’s put our support where it belongs.

 

[xlsdraw]

My post was not about me! It was about current failing in our fundamentalist Baptist Churches and the fundamentalist Baptist colleges and seminaries that are directly responsible for these failings. Furthermore, my post was based upon well-documented facts that you did not even bother to attempt to refute. Your post is nothing but hateful, malicious, and libelous lies!

I am a conservative, evangelical Baptist pastor and teacher with no ties whatsoever to New Age philosophy and the related rubbish. Yet I see that a BB member has rated your post “Agree.” Such shamefulness does not belong on message boards, and especially not on Christian message boards. What an abomination!

We have today some excellent Baptist colleges, seminaries, and Universities that need and deserve or support. Let’s put our support where it belongs.

Your post was an arrogant hit piece full of condemnation of those that your generation can't hold a candle to.

 

[Marooncat79]

No Sonny Piles, no Mike G, no brother’s Montgomery , no Chris Crouse (who BTW offered to help out a failing Baptist church in NW NJ by coming up to preach the word). At times like this, trust in the Providence of God to fill in the blanks. He is always planting seeds.

Maurice Montgomery?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Maurice Montgomery?

No… I’m saying David, Michael & Tim Montgomery