Finish the Sentence...

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

God has the "GRACE" but it is not given until there is first "FAITH" in Jesus.

Do you seriously think that God's grace begins when someone has faith? Is there no grace before that?

Ro 10:9 That..if.. thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The "IF", "believe in thine heart", comes "BEFORE", "thou shalt be saved".

This verse doesn't mention regeneration, so you wasted your energy typing in capital letters on this one.

De 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God,

God doesn't "Change" and neither does his "plan of salvation".

Not sure what this has to do with regeneration...

Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

It was "Abraham's FAITH", not God's faith, that was "COUNTED TO HIM", because the faith belonged to Abraham, not God.

I'm sorry, could you please re-read Roman's 4 and tell me where it says "Abraham's faith" or even "his faith?" The closest you come is to Paul's application in verse 5, which says, "Now to him who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted as righteousness."

But you have to be very careful not making this section say more than it is. This is the same section the Catholics use to talk about our faith being our righteousness before God. It is also the same section the New Perspective on Paul people turn to to discredit forensic justification and the imputation of Christ's righteousness. Needless to say, I believe they are both wrong, and they make the same emphasis you do from this section. You're in good company!

God calls many who are not chosen, is God's calling at fault for not giving them the "Faith" they need to believe, if it is then scripture lied when it said Jesus didn't come to condemn the world and die for the sins of the whole world that the world through him "might be" saved.

You take one verse out of context to say that God calls many who are not chosen??? The "many called" are the ones to whom the general call of the gospel goes out, such as when an evangelist stands on the street corner and proclaims the gospel. This is not the call of God. The call of God comes to a person's heart and effects what it sets out to do.

Why the "might be" if it not possible for the whole world to be saved???

John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Boy, you really don't know what you are talking about, do you? The one word translated "might be saved" is sothey. It is a subjunctive in form. We use it often to indicate something that is not necessarily just a possibility. For instance, "I bought a car so that I might be able to drive to work." It just gives the reason why I did something.

Calvin accuses God of some "Characteristics" that only "Sinners" possess,

1. if you don't "LOVE", you sin.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world,

Ro 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation.

Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


2. Respect of persons = sin

Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.


Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Calvin doctrine is based more on Ignorance of scripture, than "knowledge".

You try to attribute to God your definition of love and fairness. God says He loves His children more than those who are the children of the devil. God isn't a sinner, is He? God says He mold some vessels for honor and some vessels for dishonor. God isn't a sinner, is he?

For someone who constantly misquotes Scripture, ignores what others have said, doesn't know basic Greek, and has no clue what the differences are between basic theological words, it seems a little arrogan to say that Calvin's doctrine is based on ignorance rather than knowledge.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Regeneration is when the Old man dies and you become a "New Creature", "SAVED".

You don't get regenerated until you believe in Jesus,

Please look up a word before you pretend to know what it is. Here is "regeneration" from Webster's Dictionary:

In theology, new birth by the grace of God; that change by which the will and natural enmity of man to God and his law are subdued, and a principle of supreme love to God and his law, or holy affections, are implanted in the heart.

and God doesn't "GIVE" the "BELIEF" to you, that your choice, "ABRAHAM BELIEVED" and "IT" (HIS) faith was counted "TO HIM",

NOT GOD.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

"it" is the gift of God. "It" is the whole of salvation by grace through faith. Faith is included in the gift.

2 Timothy 1:5-6 when I call to remembrance the genuine faith that is in you, which dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am persuaded is in you also. 6 Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.

Paul remembers the faith that is in Timothy and urges him to stir up the "gift of God" that is in him. Gift of God equals faith here.

1 Corinthians 12:7-9 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit,

Faith is one of the gifts of the Spirit. Why, if it is not a gift of God?

Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake

Both suffering and faith are seen as being "granted" (given) by God. And it does not just mean "allowed." The Greek word is charidzomai, which means "gifted, given, bestow on."

John 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

We've talked about this one before, but it is pretty obvious what it says. The only ones who come (believe) are those to whom it has been granted (given).

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."

Here, repentance (the corrolary to faith), is granted (given) to the Gentiles by God.

Acts 3:12-16 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: "Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13 "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14 "But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 "and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 16 "And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

The faith that healed this man came through Jesus. It was not in this man to begin with, but when Jesus' name was preached, faith came.

Romans 11:5-8 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."

Here, faith is not given to Israel, but blindness is.

2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace

God has given us everlasting consolation and good hope. Good hope is faith (the substance of things hoped for). God gives it to us.

 

[tinytim]

Grace through faith

 

[Bob Dudley]

Salvation (I am saved) is by far the greatest gift known to man.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
Regeneration is when the Old man dies and you become a "New Creature", "SAVED".

You don't get regenerated until you believe in Jesus,

Please look up a word before you pretend to know what it is. Here is "regeneration" from Webster's Dictionary:

In theology, new birth by the grace of God; that change by which the will and natural enmity of man to God and his law are subdued, and a principle of supreme love to God and his law, or holy affections, are implanted in the heart.

and God doesn't "GIVE" the "BELIEF" to you, that your choice, "ABRAHAM BELIEVED" and "IT" (HIS) faith was counted "TO HIM",

NOT GOD.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

"it" is the gift of God. "It" is the whole of salvation by grace through faith. Faith is included in the gift.

</font>[/QUOTE]Mr 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Lu 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.


Mt 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself (himself???) as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Mr 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

WHY are many called and few chosen, God's fault, not giving them the faith they need to believe/saved???

BTW, I don't read "dicshunaries" to understand "God's word".

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Mr 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Did you read none of the 9 verses that I quoted that showed that faith is a gift from God? Obviously, if the father had any faith, it was from God, since the 9 verses that I quoted show that it is a gift from God. Notice he asks Jesus to "help" his unbelief. It sounds like he is asking Jesus (God) to give him a little more of what He had already given him.

Lu 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

Read my first two sentences in above response. The apostles ask the Lord (God) to increase what He had already given them. Of course it is "ours" once God gives it to us.

Mt 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself (himself???) as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Is a person supposed to humble someone else? A person is responsible for their own pride and humility. And they are held accountable for refusing to be humble. The fact that God must give someone faith before they will be willing to be humble in no way changes this.

Mr 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Why do you post a verse that Calvinists have no problem with like its a slam-dunk or something? This verse says NOTHING about what must happen in that person before they will be willing to "receive the kingdom of God as a little child." BTW, I don't go preach to an unbeliever that they must wait for a work of God to believe. I plead with them to believe. I pray that God would work in their hearts to make them willing. This is the biblical method of preaching the gospel.

WHY are many called and few chosen, God's fault, not giving them the faith they need to believe/saved???

Since you didn't deal with my reply to this the first time you typed it, I will just copy and paste my original reply:

"You take one verse out of context to say that God calls many who are not chosen??? The "many called" are the ones to whom the general call of the gospel goes out, such as when an evangelist stands on the street corner and proclaims the gospel. This is not the call of God. The call of God comes to a person's heart and effects what it sets out to do."

BTW, I don't read "dicshunaries" to understand "God's word".

But you do need to read "dicshunaries" to understand language. If you are going to use a technical term like regeneration, you need to understand what it means and how it is used throughout Scripture. It helps to know at least a little (that's all I know) about Greek and Hebrew if you are going to, on a theology board, discuss verses that were originally written in Greek and Hebrew.

 

[Frenchy]

Not sure what happened here. must be a debate going on way before i came. I am not all up on calvinism or free will theology.

I guess I lean more on the side of calvinism. I believe the bible clearly teaches that God CHOOSE us before there was time Eph.1:4, God DRAWS us to himself John 6:44, and he KEEPS us till the day of redemption, Eph. 1:14-4:30.

Everything depends on God nothing in ourselves, even our faith and faithfulness comes from God and our abilty to surrender all. the chair part to me would mean the moment I surrender my will over to his, which again i believe can only be done through Gods power in the first place.

No man seeketh after God, the bible says. ROM. 3:11

 

[Hope of Glory]

What must I do to be saved?

Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

I am saved by believing on the Lord Jesus.

 

[Frenchy]

yes the word believe here is the committed and heart change that is nessesary for salvation, but let's not forget even this still comes from God.


1 Cor. 2:14 "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that comes from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

SEE even your ability to "believe" and call upon the Lord Jesus comes from God.

No man seeketh after God, the bible says. ROM. 3:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Just for curiosity sake, I would like everyone who is interested to finish the following sentence:

Salvation (I am saved) is by ____________________.

I am curious to see if we understand our biblical terminology. I will stay out of the thread for a while and wait until sufficient number of people have bantered it about until I make my comments so you can see where my though processes are.

Hello Calvibaptist. Someone has probably already said it. Today we know His name, and it by His name that we are saved for there is no name under heaven other than His that can save.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
Ephesians 2:8

So far as I have read on the first page no one has paid any attention to your reply to EdSutton. I’m inserting here your Ephesians 2:8 reference, ”For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of Go/”

Christian faith, ituttut

 

[MRCoon]

One step further just to outdo the rest of you

Sitting in the chair without thinking about the action of sitting in the chair or the consquences.

Faith is the absence of thought! Not a "blind stumbling about hoping I don't stub my toe" kind of faith but a conscious and subconscious belief that as a little child I'm going to "jump into my Father's hands from whatever height because he will catch me because he loves me." I've never seen a toddler squeeze their dad's muscles or give them a strength test to validate their jump...they just do it without thinking about it!

As a boy of 10, who grew up in Church and a Christian School, I knew the Bible and knew the "Plan of Salvation" but it was not until a Sunday School teacher explained that our faith in God needs to be just like that faith we gave the chair we were sitting in...no one tested the chair or gingerly sat down and scooted on a little at a time hoping the chair wouldn't collaspe on us...that is the same faith we are to show to accept God's gift of eternal salvation and the blessed hope...just "sit right down."

Some people think that salvation is a faith as if one is drowning while I think this should be a mindset to realize our sinful state it is not the "faith" to be saved...more like it is the faith to be lost. I think this kind of "faith" does nothing but give people "Fire Insurance" but no real ownership of Jesus' salvation. Real ownership is much more than this.

[ March 12, 2006, 05:18 AM: Message edited by: MRCoon ]

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Frenchy:
I heard a very good example of what FAITH was, trusting in something you cannot see. Commiting yourself over to something to hold you up,something to take care of you, guide you, other than yourself.

Say you have a chair in front of you. you believe that the chair will hold you up (intellectual FAITH) but it isn't. it isn't until you put your committed faith into the chair by SITTING in it, does it become saved faith a committed faith. God doesn't want people to just believe in him intellectually, he wants people to commit their whole life into his care, that is when there is a real heart change not just saying some prayer or going to church.

Hello Frenchy. We have to watch our sitting. J. Vernon McGee (this is close to it) says, “There are too many ‘sitting on the premises of the churches’, and not enough ‘standing on the promises of God’”.

We do have to watch though that we do not bring “our work Lordship” into His Grace.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

[Hope of Glory]

yes the word believe here is the committed and heart change that is nessesary for salvation

Oops, I missed that part of the verse: "Be faithful and have a committed andheart change that is necessary for salvation and you will be saved."

Oh, wait; that's not in my Bible. It simply says "believe" (not "faith" and it's "believe" in the aorist, not present tense) and you will be saved. "Believe" plus nothing. My Bible does not have the word "faith" in that verse. For that matter, I've checked the KJV, NA27, W-H, TR, CLV, ALT, YLT, WNT, and the NET, and none of them have the word "faith" in that verse.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
Regeneration is when the Old man dies and you become a "New Creature", "SAVED".


NOT GOD.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

</font>[/QUOTE]Calvibaptist. Not entering into your particular discussion, at this time at least, with Me4Him. Just wish to say happy to see Ephesians 2:8 brought up here in this post. I would not have posted my earlier, had I gotten this far.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

[Me4Him]

Ac 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must...."I DO".....to be saved?

31 And they said,
1. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,

and


2. thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Predestination/Election by God, would make God a "respecter of persons", and instead of an unbias "JUDGE" following the dictates of the "law",

A Judge issuing Judgments according to his personal predilection, rather than the law, which not only is a "serious violation of law", but negates the giving of the law in the first place,

Why give the law if you are not going to judge by the law,

Predestination/Election by God's "Predilection" totally eliminate the need/Judgment of/by the law

"IF" a person can be "Guilty/Condemned" for "Unbelief", they can also be "Guilty/Justified" for "Belief".

what must...."I DO".....to be saved?

Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned,

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: (predestined to hell) therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.


When you get to the "Foundation" on which these doctrines are build, like sand, little pieces keep fall away until there's nothing left.

 

[Me4Him]

MRCoon

Faith is the absence of thought! Not a "blind stumbling about hoping I don't stub my toe" kind of faith but a conscious and subconscious belief that as a little child I'm going to "jump into my Father's hands from whatever height because he will catch me because he loves me."

One reason why it's sometimes referred to as a "Leap of Faith", God doesn't "PUSH", or "PULL", but with his "CALL" says:

"GO ahead, jump, I'll catch you", but "WE" make the "DECISION" to jump or not.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
Oh, wait; that's not in my Bible. It simply says "believe" (not "faith" and it's "believe" in the aorist, not present tense) and you will be saved. "Believe" plus nothing. My Bible does not have the word "faith" in that verse. For that matter, I've checked the KJV, NA27, W-H, TR, CLV, ALT, YLT, WNT, and the NET, and none of them have the word "faith" in that verse. [/QB]

There's one little problem: the Greek word is pisteuson, which is translated variably "believe, have faith," so faith is in that verse.

As for it being an aorist, that proves nothing. Most verbs in narrative sections are aorist. Aorist is the most popular verb form in Koine Greek. Moulton has said that the aorist presents "an event as a single whole, without regarding the time taken in its accomplishment." Simply put, aorist is not necessarily a past tense, nor a present tense, nor a future tense, but can be used in all three instances.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
One reason why it's sometimes referred to as a "Leap of Faith", God doesn't "PUSH", or "PULL", but with his "CALL" says:

"GO ahead, jump, I'll catch you", but "WE" make the "DECISION" to jump or not. [/QB]

"Leap of Faith" was a phrase thought to be coined by Soren Kierkegaard to describe Christian faith which is not based on empiracle reason. Although no reference to this phrase can be found in his works, it would certainly fit his system and would, most likely, go against everything you believe.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Ac 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must...."I DO".....to be saved?

31 And they said,
1. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,

and


2. thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Predestination/Election by God, would make God a "respecter of persons", and instead of an unbias "JUDGE" following the dictates of the "law",

A Judge issuing Judgments according to his personal predilection, rather than the law, which not only is a "serious violation of law", but negates the giving of the law in the first place,

Why give the law if you are not going to judge by the law,

Predestination/Election by God's "Predilection" totally eliminate the need/Judgment of/by the law

That is the biggest bunch of baloney I have ever read. You have judged God completely by a set of man's standards, holding Him up to man's laws and ways, making Him accountable to man's definitions, and determining that if He is really like He says He is in the Bible then He is more guilty than we. Please stop making philosophical and sociological arguments against Calvinism and make Scriptural arguments.

"IF" a person can be "Guilty/Condemned" for "Unbelief", they can also be "Guilty/Justified" for "Belief".

A person is guilty/condemned because of Adam (Romans 5). They continue being condemned because they have not believed. They are justified by faith. We do not have an argument here. This point that you made is exactly what Calvinists believe.

what must...."I DO".....to be saved?

Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned,

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: (predestined to hell) therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

We know these verses are there and love them just as much as you do. You are quoting verses that do not disprove our points. Come up with one that says that all men are able and willing to believe (not just one that commands all men to believe) and I will change my view. I've already shown you verses that show that all men are not able and willing to believe, so the ball is still in your court.

When you get to the "Foundation" on which these doctrines are build, like sand, little pieces keep fall away until there's nothing left.

The "Foundation" is Scripture, not man's philosophical ideas about who God must be.