finite SINNING punished with INFINITE torture?

[DHK]

I do not argue that to miss out on eternity is not an eternal consequence. But the "debt" of pain and suffering "owed" - the TORTURE and torment OWED is finite as we see in Matt 18 and Luke 12.

Herein lies your problem--bad hermeneutics.
A parable is but an illustration. It used to illustrate truth that is already taught elsewhere; it is never used to teach doctrine; only to illustrate the doctrine being taught. There is a difference and it is important to understand that difference. One may NOT teach doctrine solely from an illustration. That is a characteristic of cults. Once you start teaching doctrine from cults you can make the Bible say anything you want it to say. Parables can teach anything that you want the parable to teach. Jesus never intended it to be that way. Most parables are intended to teach one essential point, and that is all.
For you to back up your doctrinal beliefs simply through references from parables shows the weakness of your position.

 

[BobRyan]

The point of the parable of Matt 18 is to SHOW the principle of forgiveness revoked and of debt fortiven or debt paid. The debt is finite but huge in Matt 18.

In Matt 18 Christ himself adds the point that every last amount owed WILL be fully paid -- INSTEAD of arguing "there is no way for the amount owed to be paid in torment for it is INFINITE".

The point of Luke 12 IS to SHOW the relative DIFFERENCE in payment between one kind of debtor and ANOTHER kind of debtor. The whole POINT is that one gets FEW torment lashes while another gets MANY instead of saying "it matters not what sins they are guilty of - BOTH get INFINITE torture"..

Luke 12
45"But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;

46the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

The entire illustration goes to the point of two different states for sinners in hill and the RESULTing DIFFERENCE in what debt is owed in torment.

(Please note - Luke 12 is NOT a parable any more than Matt 5 of the beattitudes is a parable. It is a PREDICTION about "God and Sinners" in the future judgment but it uses "master" and "slave" as illustration comparison)

Turning a blind eye to these texts and glossing over EVEN the points summarized as the MAIN point of the illustration does not help you make your case sir.

It merely exposes your need to ignore the main point of the illustration.

In Christ,

bob

 

[Matt Black]

HP: A great explanation of why sin is not a finite matter but one of infinite scope and duration.

Although agreeing with much of #2, Packer lands himself in logical error on this point IF he believes it was a literal payment. I would surmise that he probably does given the climate of today’s theological circles. Again, IF he does believe it was a literal payment for sins, he has trouble brewing on all sides. If He says, as the above post states, that the atonement provided ‘infinite satisfaction’ for the sins of mankind, he is either going to land in the trap of universalism, or the trap of presenting the atonement as less than effective to succor the stated objective, i.e. the infinite satisfaction of the sins of mankind.

The other issue is that if Packer denies universalism, you have the issue of predestined damnation via the atonement only covering the sins of the elect. This also would be in direct contradiction to his statement that the atonement was for the infinite satisfaction for the sins of mankind.

Although Packer indeed says some great things, he is in obvious trouble with what seems to me as his probable overriding emphasis on the atonement as being a literal payment, which it is not. If I am wrong in any way about his beliefs, I am sure open to learning the truth, and will retract or correct any statements I have made concerning his beliefs if necessary.

How about it Matt? Can you understand the problems I am trying to point out concerning any idea of the atonement involving a literal payment?

I understand your objections, but please note that it's been a while since I read Packer's work so I may be doing him a disservice in trying to quote him. I should say that Packer is no universalist but he is a predestinarian Calvinist and presumably therefore believes in limited atonement; I'm not sure howevere that that precludes a belief in infinite satisfaction - I would suggest the circle is squared by there being infinite satisfaction applied in a limited manner (ie: to a limited number of people), either through election (Calvinism) or free choice (Arminianism).

Does that make sense?

[ETA - have now found Packer's article here, so judge for yourself!]

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:

"But as Lev 16 points out -the atonement PROCESS must INCLUDE the high priestly work of Christ as we SEE HIM DOING in Heb 8-10."

GE:

Lev 16 points out the atoneMENT, includED, the High Priestly work of Christ; as in Heb 8-10 the high priest after having sacrificed, had to PRESENT the LIFE ("in the blood") of the sacrifice, INSIDE the sanctuary. So Christ, by "a better offering", namely, by the "PRESENTING", of His "INDESTRUCTABLE LIFE", "FINISHED atonement ... ON THAT DAY".

The atonement 'process', lasted no longer than "that day" because God's atonement is one, "once for all", WHOLE.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Not only a 'completed SACRIFICE' (SDA), but a completed ATONEMENT (Lv16) -- an atonement completed by the "OFFERING" or "PRESENTING", "BEFORE THE LORD", of the life-blood of the sacrifice, inside the sanctuary.

You described it, dear BobRyan, as, Christ entering Christ. A certain Calvinist (Klaas Schilder) described it as Christ entering into full fellowship of the Trinity. Through resurrection from the dead, of course.

It's a matter of the difference between Romish heresy and the sound doctrine of Protestantism.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Matt Black:

"... therefore ... limited atonement; I'm not sure howevere that that precludes a belief in infinite satisfaction - I would suggest the circle is squared by there being infinite satisfaction applied in a limited manner (ie: to a limited number of people), either through election (Calvinism) or free choice (Arminianism)."

GE:

I think this is good! Depending however on which 'manner' is the true one.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The one 'manner' is God's; the other is man's. So 'make you choice'.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Not only a 'completed SACRIFICE' (SDA), but a completed ATONEMENT (Lv16) -- an atonement completed by the "OFFERING" or "PRESENTING", "BEFORE THE LORD", of the life-blood of the sacrifice, inside the sanctuary.

You described it, dear BobRyan, as, Christ entering Christ. A certain Calvinist (Klaas Schilder) described it as Christ entering into full fellowship of the Trinity. Through resurrection from the dead, of course.

It's a matter of the difference between Romish heresy and the sound doctrine of Protestantism.

According to the pope's church, the atonement 'process' must go on, so they sacrifice 'Jesus' every day (mass). The blood of their 'atonement' never stops flowing; look at their images and even some of their live saints. Their atonement never gets finished -- look at their bare crosses and empty tomb. You'll never see Christ in His Glory of resurrection --- because it is the invisible intangible, spiritual reality of the LIVING and bodily RISEN, Christ.

 

[DHK]

The point of the parable of Matt 18 is to SHOW the principle of forgiveness revoked and of debt fortiven or debt paid. The debt is finite but huge in Matt 18.

Since there is no such concept taught in the Bible, obviously that is not the point. That is the danger of trying to get doctrine from parables. It doesn't work. The Bible teaches no such concept. Jesus was teaching the importance of forgiveness. When God forgives he forgives once for all time. One's sins are cast behind his back never to be remembered again. Your interpretation of the parable goes against everything else in the Bible that is taught about forgiveness. It is evident that your interpretation is wrong. You can't teach doctrine from a parable. A parable can only illustrate doctrine that has only previously been taugth. Thus your doctrine about "forgivenss revoked" is clearly unscriptural.

Luke 12
45"But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;

46the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

The entire illustration goes to the point of two different states for sinners in hill and the RESULTing DIFFERENCE in what debt is owed in torment.

(Please note - Luke 12 is NOT a parable any more than Matt 5 of the beattitudes is a parable. It is a PREDICTION about "God and Sinners" in the future judgment but it uses "master" and "slave" as illustration comparison)

Scripture taken out of context is a pretext to become your proof-text to teach your false doctrine. You say it is not a parable. You are clearly wrong and have not read the context.

Luke 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
--He is explaining the parable to his disciples.
Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God.

Turning a blind eye to these texts and glossing over EVEN the points summarized ... does not help you make your case sir.

You couldn't say it better. Now go and apply it to yourself.

 

[BobRyan]

Luke 12:41 refers to "a parable" spoken BEFORE the prediction Christ makes about the FUTURE in Luke 12:45.

Vs 42-54 is pure Gospel preaching that includes a prediction about the future judgment of all mankind.

The servants of Christ are given much and much is required of them. If they do not follow as Christ directs they are to be assigned a place WITH UNBELIEVERS. They recieve MANY lashes in that torment while those who did not know as much receive FEW by comparion. The notion of "infinite torture for ALL" is not here "at all".

36 ""Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks.
37 ""Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them.
38 "" Whether he comes in the second watch, or even in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves.

39 "" But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
40 "" You too, be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour that you do not expect.''
41 Peter said, ""Lord, are You addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?''
42 And the Lord said, "" Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time?
43 ""Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
44 ""Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

45 ""But if that slave says in his heart, "My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

47 ""And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
49 ""I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18

23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared[/b] to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'

Matt 18
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''


This is not a case of infinite debt owed or infinite payment demanded. It is a case of very large debt owed – too large for anyone to pay. It is the story of mercy and grace that forgives the exact debt owed. It is a story about “forgiveness revoked” as a much smaller debt is not forgiven “in kind”.

It is a story about that larger debt being returned – and full payment demanded. It is a warning to us – directly from Christ.

 

[DHK]

Luke 12:41 refers to "a parable" spoken BEFORE the prediction Christ makes about the FUTURE in Luke 12:45.

Vs 42-54 is pure Gospel preaching that includes a prediction about the future judgment of all mankind.

You quote the very Scripture that you cannot understand. Unbelievable.

Luke 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
--This is part of the parable that he had just referred to.

Luke 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
--Peter asks the Lord about this parable and for an explanation.
The following verses are an explanation of the above parable. Thus verses 44 and 45 have directly to do with the parable that Jesus just gave. Don't take Scripture out of context.

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
--Jesus goes on with the explanation of a parable. He speaks of a wise steward. He is speaking in a parable. This is not historical. It is a parable, an illustration.

Luke 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
--He continues on with his parable. Who is he? Who will make who ruler? This is a parable, not history. To say otherwise is a complete distortion of God's Word.

 

[BobRyan]

Luke 12 shows finite debt owed with some paying a debt of few torment lashes while others pay a debt of many.

But we do NOT see Christ saying "ALL will pay the debt of infinite torture" here. Nor any place in all of scripture!

Luke 12
36 ""Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks.
37 ""Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them.
38 "" Whether he comes in the second watch, or even in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves.

39 "" But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
40 "" You too, be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour that you do not expect.''
41 Peter said, ""Lord, are You addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?''
42 And the Lord said, "" Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time?
43 ""Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
44 ""Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

45 ""But if that slave says in his heart, "My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

47 ""And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
49 ""I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!

 

[BobRyan]

now here is what the thinking objective reader must ask - "Is this the way to say INFINITE TORTURE FOR ALL or is Christ showing FINITE debt paid with some paying MORE than others"

47 ""And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
49 ""I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

What is simply amazing to me about this whole issue, (besides BR not answering a simple straight forward question, i.e. Is sin infinite in nature or finite in nature?) is the whole issue related to Matt. 18 and Luke 12. BR tries to utilize these passages to substantiate his claim that Scripture does not teach eternal punishment of the sinner. Why would he utilize these passages for representing any truth whatsoever concerning the wicked after death?? Does he not believe in the annihilation of the wicked, not the punishment of them?……..unless of course he is now going to tell us God is going to, in his favorite expression, ‘torture’ the wicked before He annihilates them.

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Here is some fodder for the list. Dake’s states the following. “Eternal conscious punishment as an eternal monument of God’s wrath on sin so that eternal generations will know that sin does not pay. (Isa 66:22-24, Rev. 14: 9-11; 19:20; 20:10-15; Mt 5:22-30; 10:28; 13:42; 50; 18:9; 23:15, 33; 24 ;51 ; 25:30, 41, 46 ; Mk. 9:43-47; Lk. 12:5; Heb. 6: 2; 10: 26-31

One that I find most revealing is the following. Lu 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

 

[DHK]

now here is what the thinking objective reader must ask - "Is this the way to say INFINITE TORTURE FOR ALL or is Christ showing FINITE debt paid with some paying MORE than others"

47 ""And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
49 ""I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!

"I have come," he said, while he was still on the earth 2,000 years ago speaking to his disciples--"to cast fire upon the earth," a specific figurative phrase relating to that time only, while he was on the earth. He was speaking to his disciples. Again it is application from a parable which you are trying to make a doctrine out of. That is unacceptable hermeneutics.

"I am come." What would be the result of his coming--contention, strife, enmitiy, husband against wife, brother against sister, son agaisnt father, etc.
He didn't come purposely to cause it, but it would be an invariable consequence of his coming. I have come to cast fire upon the earth.
In this sense he wishes that it were already kindled. It would separate the sheep from the goats so to speak (not referring to the parable), or the wheat from the chaff.

"For everyone who has been given much, much will be required." Put it into context. Paul did when he said:
"All who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."
This is not speaking of annihiliation of the wicked (a wicked and unbiblical doctrine in and of itself). See how you have to use a parable and pull scripture out of context to make up doctrines.
Nor is it even speaking of eternal punishment at all.
Ye do err not knowing the scriptures, neither the power of God.

 

[DHK]

What is simply amazing to me about this whole issue, (besides BR not answering a simple straight forward question, i.e. Is sin infinite in nature or finite in nature?) is the whole issue related to Matt. 18 and Luke 12. BR tries to utilize these passages to substantiate his claim that Scripture does not teach eternal punishment of the sinner. Why would he utilize these passages for representing any truth whatsoever concerning the wicked after death?? Does he not believe in the annihilation of the wicked, not the punishment of them?……..unless of course he is now going to tell us God is going to, in his favorite expression, ‘torture’ the wicked before He annihilates them.

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

This is the main question isn't it? One that Bob Ryan keeps avoiding.
Is sin finite or infinite in nature?

 

[Andre]

BR tries to utilize these passages to substantiate his claim that Scripture does not teach eternal punishment of the sinner. Why would he utilize these passages for representing any truth whatsoever concerning the wicked after death?? Does he not believe in the annihilation of the wicked, not the punishment of them?……..unless of course he is now going to tell us God is going to, in his favorite expression, ‘torture’ the wicked before He annihilates them.

I also believe that the Scriptures do not teach eternal conscious torment of the lost. I believe that the lost are annihilated as the result of being cast into the lake of fire. Now I do not know what Bob believes about the process of annihilation. Hoewever, I believe that the lost experience punishment in the very process of annihilation - they are indeed punished. So there is no inconsistency here.

 

[Andre]

One that I find most revealing is the following. Lu 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Is this text from Luke supposed to be an item of evi/dence to the effect that the lost suffer never-ending conscious torment

It is not, precisely because the text harmonizes perfectly with the perspective that hell destroys the person cast into it, and does not preserve them forever. Being cast into a lake of fire and experiencing the process of being burnt away to nothing is not a walk in the park - it is something to be feared indeed.

This text (as an item unto itself) works with both the eternal torment view and the annihilation view. On the whole, I think that Scripture rather clearly teaches that the lost are indeed ultimately annihilated. I think that the eternal tormet view gains some of its appeal through view that man is "dualistic" - a view that I think is not supported by the Scriptures, but is rather informed by the Greek influence on Western culture.