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finite SINNING punished with INFINITE torture?

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BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
DHK said:
1 Timothy 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.

The Bible says that only God has immortality. Of course man does not have immortality in the context of this passage.
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And so - we get DHK to admit to the obvious.


Only to then have DHK leap right out into thin air with

DHK said
" It means immortality from one end of eternity to the other end of eternity--without beginning and without ending"
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This is totally not true. Immortality does not mean "from eternity past" as you have eisegeted in your reworked redefinition. Immortal simply means that you do not die. Notice that in 1Cor 15 "this mortal must put on IMMORTALITY" and this is NOT some kind of mormon argument that humans existed from eternity past as you try to spin the "term" immortal above.

Less smoke and more Bible sir.

In Christ,

Bob
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Andre said:
Yes I am. I believe that the Scriptures teach that man is monistic - he is of one "substance" and there is no immortal consciousness bearing soul / spirit that can exist in the absence of a body. This does not mean that I do not believe in eternal life for those under God's grace - I believe that, at some time in the future, they are resurrected from a state of "sleep" into an imperishable body (as per 1 Cor 15) and that the unredeemed are also resurrected from "sleep" into a perishable body which is then cast into the lake of fire where it is destroyed. That is what fire does - it destroys.
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Preach it.

Matt 27
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52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who[/b] had fallen [b]asleep[/b] were raised;
53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city[/b] and appeared to many.
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The saints were the ones WHO sleep and they HAD bodies that were raised. It does not say "many bodies that slept were raised" - it is not the body but the person that sleeps and the person that HAS a body and it is not simply "a body walking into the holy city" but THE PERSON.. .

Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead.

Ps 115.17 praise to God - ceases at death

Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 [b]but as for us, we will bless
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the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!
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Ps30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 -

Is 38:18 there is no thanks or praise to god given by those that are dead.


Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;
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Ps 6:5 they have no memory of God

Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

Ps 146:4 they have no thought activity

Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,
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Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity

Those are examples of texts that in context intend to deal directly with what activity is available to you (the person) while dead.
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
DHK said:
Your view goes contrary to the rest of Scripture which teaches the eternal punishmenet of the wicked. There is no other way to explain such texts as:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
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The teaching of Christ is the same in Matt 25 as it is in Jude 7 when it comes to "eternal fire" or what is called "everlasting fire".

Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.

2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God. Just as God said that “BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED” in fiery hell Matt 10:28 – so we see that the everlasting fire – the eternal fire of Jude “destroyed” the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Don’t miss the fact that eternal fire is explicitly said to have already fallen on earth. We have a clear and literal example of eternal fire in history according to the Word of God. But the man-made traditions of some Christian groups today would this Bible truth and spin it very far from where we find it in scripture.
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
His Blood Spoke My Name said:
Revelation 14:11 (KJV) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

That blows away the annihilation theory along with the verses DHK posted above.
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Wrong. It shows "smoke going up forever" and it shows that while the wicked are tormented "they have NO rest day or night" it is pure solid torture.

BUT IT ALSO shows that this ALL takes place IN THE PRESENCE of the LAMB AND of His Holy Ones" Rev 14:10 where ALSO the SAINTS are "Who follow the Lamb WHEREVER He goes" Rev 14:1-4

Inconvenient facts "I know" but true none-the-less.


Rev 14
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger[/b]; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 ""And the [b]smoke[/b] of their torment goes up forever[/b] and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.''

Is 34
8 For the LORD has a day of vengeance, A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.[/b]
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch.
10 [b]It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But [b]pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it[/b]; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness.[/quote]


So if animals are living there - what is the point of "smoke goes up forever and ever"? The smoke of an event is a reminder of the event!


  • Leviticus 2:16
    'The priest shall offer up in     smoke its memorial portion, part of its grits and its oil with all its incense as an offering by fire to the LORD.

  • Leviticus 3:5
    'Then Aaron's sons shall offer it up in     smoke on the altar on the burnt offering, which is on the wood that is on the fire; it is an offering by fire of a soothing aroma to the LORD.
  • Leviticus 2:2
    'He shall then bring it to Aaron's sons the priests; and shall take from it his handful of its fine flour and of its oil with all of its frankincense And the priest shall offer it up in     smoke as its memorial portion on the altar, an offering by fire of a soothing aroma to the LORD.
  • Leviticus 2:9
    'The priest then shall take up from the grain offering its     memorial portion, and shall offer it up in smoke on the altar as an offering by fire of a soothing aroma to the LORD.
  • Leviticus 5:12
    'He shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as its     memorial portion and offer it up in smoke on the altar, with the offerings of the LORD by fire: it is a sin offering.
  • Leviticus 6:15
    ' Then one of them shall lift up from it a handful of the fine flour of the grain offering, with its oil and all the incense that is on the grain offering, and he shall offer it     up in smoke on the altar, a soothing aroma, as its memorial offering to the LORD.
Numbers 5:26
and the priest shall take a handful of the grain offering as its memorial offering and offer it up in smoke on the altar, and afterward he shall make the woman drink the water.

In Christ,

Bob
 
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H

Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
BR: Immortality does not mean "from eternity past"

HP: It depends on whether one is using the word immortal with the object as God or speaking of man. One can indeed speak of both God and man as eternal or immortal, just in different senses. Man indeed has been given an immortal soul.
 
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Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
BR: Inconvenient facts "I know" but true none-the-less.
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HP: What facts have you given that are inconvenient? I am following the Lord now. Does that mean I will see or understand everything He does? You simply beg the question Bob.

 
H

Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
HP: That which God recorded here was a schoolmaster that was supposed to lead us to the truth. Has it failed to do it’s work in the hearts and minds of some?
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: What facts have you given that are inconvenient? I am following the Lord now. Does that mean I will see or understand everything He does? You simply beg the question Bob.
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The facts in Rev 14 that you are still not addressing sir.

here they are "again".

(speaking of Rev 14) It shows "smoke going up forever" and it shows that while the wicked are tormented day and night (not tormented forever) "they have NO rest day or night" it is pure solid torture.

BUT IT ALSO shows that this ALL takes place IN THE PRESENCE of the LAMB AND of His Holy Ones" Rev 14:10 where ALSO the SAINTS are "Who follow the Lamb WHEREVER He goes" Rev 14:1-4
 
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BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: That which God recorded here was a schoolmaster that was supposed to lead us to the truth. Has it failed to do it’s work in the hearts and minds of some?
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God's Word teaches us that the ascending smoke is a symbol of a "reminder" a "memorial" hence the hedgehog LIVING in the land where the SMOKE is ascending up forever!

(Just stating the obvious sir)
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
BR: Immortality does not mean "from eternity past"

HP: It depends on whether one is using the word immortal with the object as God or speaking of man. One can indeed speak of both God and man as eternal or immortal, just in different senses. Man indeed has been given an immortal soul.
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God is both eternal and immortal man is not. And "immortal soul" or "man has been given an immortal soul" is not found in all of scripture. What we DO have "in scripture" is "The Soul that sins IT WILL die" Ezek 18:4
 
H

Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
BR: (speaking of Rev 14) It shows "smoke going up forever" and it shows that while the wicked are tormented day and night (not tormented forever) "they have NO rest day or night" it is pure solid torture.
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HP:One might consider that in eternity there will be no night, for it will be day for eternity with the Lord. There will be no cessation of days. "Day and night," as seen in this verse and dealing in the context of eternity, is simply an expression that signifies 'without end.'

If you think this verse states an abbreviated time period, please point to the portion of the text that substanciates that point. You are begging the question once again.
 
D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
BobRyan said:
The teaching of Christ is the same in Matt 25 as it is in Jude 7 when it comes to "eternal fire" or what is called "everlasting fire".

Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.

2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God. Just as God said that “BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED” in fiery hell Matt 10:28 – so we see that the everlasting fire – the eternal fire of Jude “destroyed” the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Don’t miss the fact that eternal fire is explicitly said to have already fallen on earth. We have a clear and literal example of eternal fire in history according to the Word of God. But the man-made traditions of some Christian groups today would this Bible truth and spin it very far from where we find it in scripture.
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To put it planly Bob, it is you and perhaps your cult that you represent, that is doing the twisting here. I have no tradition to represent. I study the Bible. It is my final authority. In these passages I have not consulted other resource material, nor do I need to. The meaning of the passage is so evident and clear that one can hardly miss it unless he is trying to as you are.
Note: Cities are destroyed and turned to ashes. There buildings are turned to ashes. That much is true. But just as a church isn't a building, but rather the people that gather in the building, so it is with the city. New York would not exist unless the people of New York lived there. The structures of that place they call New York need the people to make up the city. The city refers to the people as much as it does to the structures of the city. One could easily say I am going to the people of New York, instead of, I am going to New York. They mean one and the same thing in many people's minds.

God didn't condemn the structures of Sodom and Gomorroh. He condemned the people of those cities for all eternity. They live in eternal separation from God, suffering in a state of eternal destruction or everlasting punishment--where the worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, and they are tormented day and night forever and ever, in everlasting chains of darkness.
 
A

Andre

Well-Known Member
DHK said:
As I suspected you are taking these quotes out of context, not discerning the theological vocabularly that is being used. What did Calvin mean when the soul does not have an immortal nature (in the context of 1 Tim.6:16), which says:

1 Timothy 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.

The Bible says that only God has immortality. Of course man does not have immortality in the context of this passage. It means immortality from one end of eternity to the other end of eternity--without beginning and without ending. Only God has that attribute; not man. Man has a beginning but no ending. In that way he is eternal; but not in the same way as God is.

Don't take his words out of context.
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You have not demonstrated that I have taken these words out of context. Here is the text with some of the preceding verses:

11But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

I see nothing at all in this text that supports your claim that "It means immortality from one end of eternity to the other end of eternity--without beginning and without ending."

Where does the above text state or imply this special sense of "eternal" that you claim is being used?

Please provide specifics.
 
D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Andre said:
Where does the above text state or imply this special sense of "eternal" that you claim is being used?

Please provide specifics.
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Compare these texts:

1 Timothy 6:15-16 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
--The verse specifically says that only God has immortality--ONLY God.

1 Corinthians 15:53-54 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
--This passage of Scripture is speaking of the resurrection, the resurrection of the believer. The object here is man and not God. Man has a beginning; God does not. Man will become immortal in the sense that he will put on an immortal or eternal and glorified body. It will last forever. But we have a starting point in history; in the eternal spectrum of life.

Only God is immortal in the sense that he has no beginning and no ending. That is how the word is used in 1Tim.6:16. The Bible does not contradict itself. Words do have different shades of meaning. You ought to know that even from the English language. When immortal describes God; only God is immortal as having no beginning and no ending. But when it describes men it assumes that man has a beginning.
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
#1. Immortal does not mean "from eternity past" in the Bible. Hence "This mortal shall put on immortality" 1Cor 15.

#2. God is BOTH immortal AND from eternity past. "From everlasting TO evrlasting thou art God"

#3. just stating the obvious.

In Christ,

Bob
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Bob said
BR: (speaking of Rev 14) It shows "smoke going up forever" and it shows that while the wicked are tormented day and night (not tormented forever) "they have NO rest day or night" it is pure solid torture.
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Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP:One might consider that in eternity there will be no night, for it will be day for eternity with the Lord. There will be no cessation of days. "Day and night," as seen in this verse and dealing in the context of eternity, is simply an expression that signifies 'without end.'
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#1. Day and night is never used in scripture to mean "everlasting" or "eternity".

#2. If we speculate as you have done in Rev 14:11 then we have just speculated that "for eternity" the Angels and Christ and all the saints of Rev 14:6 who are WITH the Lamb IN HIS PRESENCE wherever He goes -- are continually IN the presence of the tortured lost friends and family of the saints. Truely a harsh thing to speculate.

Better to let the Bible speak to this "DESTRUCITON by reducing them to ashes" event that God's Word calls "everlasting fire" - than to engage in pure speculation that "day and night" is how John says "eternal".

Post 97 - page 10 comes to mind
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=983126&postcount=97


Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

Christ argues that we should not fear with wicked men plan to do – and in fact DO – to the saints. “Kill the body” since in those things they are not able to “kill” the soul. Rather fear what God plans to do – and in fact WILL do in the fiery hell to come – to “destroy BOTH body AND soul” IN fiery hell -- doing that which sinful men CAN NOT do to their fellow man. He does not merely say – “fear Him who could choose to destroy BOTH body and soul if he should ever be inclined to do such a thing” – rather He states it in the affirmative saying WHERE and when he will do it “IN fiery hell”

Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.

2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God. Just as God said that “BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED” in fiery hell Matt 10:28 – so we see that the everlasting fire – the eternal fire of Jude “destroyed” the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

In Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
DHK said:
To put it planly Bob, it is you and perhaps your cult that you represent, that is doing the twisting here. I have no tradition to represent.
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Such stunning proofs are hard to respond to since they appeal to a specific vacuum in reason and logic to make their case.

i.e. My point remains unchallenged.

DHK
I study the Bible. It is my final authority.
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I think that there certainly have been some times - when that has been true on this board sir. This is not one of them.

Note: Cities are destroyed and turned to ashes. There buildings are turned to ashes. That much is true. But just as a church isn't a building, but rather the people that gather in the building, so it is with the city. New York would not exist unless the people of New York lived there. The structures of that place they call New York need the people to make up the city.
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you are merely rationalizing in favor of your man-made tradition rather than exegeting by actually look AT the wording IN the text where IT SAYS the CITIES were destroyed by everlasting fire. It is as if you "imagine" that we will read the text that so contradicts your views and then trun from it to your "story telling" as some kind of "proof" that we should not SEE in the text what it clearly says!

That is not working.

Historically what "can be clearly SEEN" what is "EXHIBITED" is that BOTH the CITIES AND the people were TOGETHER as BOTH of them were "destroyed" by eternal fire. And as Christ predicts of PEOPLE in Matt 10:28 they are "DESTROYED BOTH body AND SOUL in fiery hell" speaking of the 2nd death seen in Rev 20..

Again - this is incredibly obvious. The objective reader sees it clearly - all of your story telling not withstanding sir.

in Christ,

Bob
 
A

Andre

Well-Known Member
DHK said:
Compare these texts:

1 Timothy 6:15-16 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
--The verse specifically says that only God has immortality--ONLY God.

1 Corinthians 15:53-54 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
--This passage of Scripture is speaking of the resurrection, the resurrection of the believer. The object here is man and not God. Man has a beginning; God does not. Man will become immortal in the sense that he will put on an immortal or eternal and glorified body. It will last forever. But we have a starting point in history; in the eternal spectrum of life.

Only God is immortal in the sense that he has no beginning and no ending. That is how the word is used in 1Tim.6:16. The Bible does not contradict itself. Words do have different shades of meaning. You ought to know that even from the English language. When immortal describes God; only God is immortal as having no beginning and no ending. But when it describes men it assumes that man has a beginning.
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This is not correct reasoning.

You compare the 1 Timothy text to 1 Cor 15 where reference is made to man putting on immortality. But your argument is basically the following, starting from the agreed truth that 1 Timothy 6 states that God alone is immortal:

1. 1 Tim 6 says God alone is immortal
2. 1 Cor 15 says men become immortal - before the resurrection we are not. We have a starting point for our immortality
3. God has no beginning.
4. Therefore when the word "immortal" is used in reference to God, it must refer to immortality in this "no beginning and no end" sense.
5. Therefore, 1 Tim means that only God is immortal in this specific "no beginning and no end" sense.
6. Therefore 1 Tim makes no statement against the immortality of man in his capacity as a being who, unlike God, has a beginning.

The problem is item 4 - it is completely unjustified and does not follow.

Consider the following "proof" that the statement "Fred alone is rich" does not mean that Joe is not rich:

1. Fred alone is rich (analogous to "God alone is immortal")
2. Joe wins the lottery - he becomes rich at a specific point in time.
3. Fred has always been rich - he was born rich.
4. Therefore when the word "rich" is used in relation to Fred it is used in the special sense of "Fred has always been rich".
5. Therefore statement 1 is really only a statement about this special "always been rich" kind of richness.
6. Therefore statement 1 allows us to conclude that Joe indeed can be rich.

I trust the problem is obvious.
 
A

Andre

Well-Known Member
Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.

2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

I would think that the way these verses qualify each other make it clear - the destruction by fire that is referred to in Jude 7 is echoed in 2 Peter 2:6. And what does the 2 Peter text say? It clearly states that S&G were reduced to ashes. The person who would argue that the Jude 7 text is making reference to the souls of the men in S&G is placed in the exceedingly awkward position of having to assert that while the 2 Peter text is obviously referring to the physical destruction to ashes of S&G, the Jude 7 text is referring to something entirely different - the fate of the souls of men in S&G. This is made even more difficult by the fact that both these texts refer to the S&G account as an example, further strengthening the argument that same issue is being dealt with in both cases.

To assert that the Jude 7 text refers to souls and the 2 Peter text refers to towns is to argue that two very different examples are being established by 2 mysteriously parallel events. Apparently 2 Peter must be an example of physical destruction and Jude 7 is an example of the eternal destruction of souls in Hell. It would be hard to think of a more confusing way to give examples of 2 fundamentally different kinds of things than to refer to the same event.
 
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