finite SINNING punished with INFINITE torture?

[BobRyan]

HP
You may have a finite number of sins, but what does that have to do with the nature of sin being ‘finite’? Absolutely nothing. There is not the least shred of evidence that the intrinsic nature of sin is finite

We have texts such as Matt 18 and Luke 12:50-57 that show sin to be finite and the debt owed for sin to be finite. But as for your "infinite sin" idea - nothing in all of scripture. Hence you provide nothing in your comment to support that idea.

It is certainly instructive for the reader who pays attention to the details.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Read the Scripture above. Your theology does not agree with.

My position is that Christ died once for all - one atoning sacrifice for all of time - and that his sacrifice pays the accumulated REAL debt of owed for each sin committed by each person in all of time. A very large and finite debt paid once for all by a very large and finite payment.

By not even following the discussion points you simply pronounce victory over your own post without actually addressing the points raised.

I think there are some on this board for whom those tactics do work - I am just not one of them sir. (But of course you already knew that -- so back to the point of the OP)

He sacrificed himself ONCE, "to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself" That means all the sin of mankind collectively (Heb.9>26). That is the same teaching as all of the above verses. Not one of them indicate paying for individual sins. Not one verse.

The language "Not for OUR SINS only but for the sins of the whole world" SHOWS an aggregation by definition the accumulation of each debt owed. Your nonsensical idea above fails to allow for the text.

Please try again.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Sin has eternal consequences. It will separate you from God for all eternity.

It is true that the wicked are dead for all of eternity - "destroyed BOTH body AND soul" Mat 10:28... but it is not true that the man-made tradition regarding "infinite torture" is being promoted there.

You will suffer in the LOF for all eternity. There is eternal punishment clearly taught in the Bible.

There is no mention either of "eternal torture" OR of "infinite torture" in all of scripture sir. Simply repeating man-made tradition is not the sam thing has having Bible support.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[hillclimber1]

HP: Where does Scripture indicate that? Certainly unbelief is sin, but all selfishness is not unbelief, yet it is certainly sin and will be punished, will it not?

I guess I'm wrong. Rev20 There is a judgment, for what they have done, if their names are not in the Lamb's book of Life. But I think we saved are not judged, our sins are blotted out. We are seen as Holy, sinless.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Bob,

IF they are destroyed totally in the sense you so advocate, then John must have been lying when he said they have no rest day nor night.

Your limited view destroyed does not line up with the Word of God's infinite wisdom of destroyed.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: My position is that Christ died once for all - one atoning sacrifice for all of time - and that his sacrifice pays the accumulated REAL debt of owed for each sin committed by each person in all of time. A very large and finite debt paid once for all by a very large and finite payment.

HP: What is the scriptural penalty for sin? Where do you get it is a “very large and finite debt?” You continue to beg the question. Show us where sin is finite in nature, and that the penalty paid was finite in nature.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK, the problem as I see it with the view of many is that they hold to a literal payment of all sin and then make it less than effective to do what they say it accomplished. I see no way to escape the necessitated illogical ends of the literal payment theory, If one accepts the idea that all sins have been atoned for in a literal sense, you cannot esacpe universalism. On the other hand, if you say God atoned for all sin literally, but it is only made effective in the lives of the elect, you find yourself entertaining a stark contradiction, God’s atonement less than effective to accomplish that which it is said to have accomplished as well as representing God as a respecter of persons. If one holds to a literal payment, and only some have it applied to their lives via the election of God, you have the necessitated damnation of the wicked, never even having the possibility of forgiveness of sins due to the fact of limited atonement.

I personally see no other logical answer to this dilemma other than the acceptance of the idea that there was no literal payment at all. The atonement was a governmental proceeding that allowed Christ to suffer sufficiently that God accepted that suffering as a satisfaction of the penalty of the laws demands. It allows God to treat man governmentally ‘as if though’ he has not sinned when we satisfy the conditions He has set forth to make the atonement effective in our lives, i.e., repent, exercise faith, and then continue in obedience to the end.

GE:

Woe to the poor man who should understand you!

 

[BobRyan]

I guess I'm wrong. Rev20 There is a judgment, for what they have done, if their names are not in the Lamb's book of Life. But I think we saved are not judged, our sins are blotted out. We are seen as Holy, sinless.

indeed each of the deeds they have done.

as 2Cor 5 says to "given an account for the DEEDS done in the body whether they be good or evil".

As Matt 18 points out - a servant had worked up a SPECIFIC debt - a LARGE debt but not an infinite debt. That debt - that EXACT debt is forgiven in the Gospel of Grace according to the instruction of Christ in Matt 18.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Instead of all getting the same punishment of "infinite torture' the Bible says that each one pays according to his own debt of sin --

Luke 12
45"But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;

46the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quote:
Originally Posted by hillclimber1
The only sin the unsaved man will suffer for is the sin of unbelief.

Bob Ryan:


What a great place for a Bible quote instead.

GE:

If hillclimber's to you isn't Scripture, no Scripture will do. Because what he insists, is, TRUTH.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

With recognition to DHK, who gave this Scripture, to Bob Ryan with his skew SDA view of sins being atoned for through a process of some 2000 years:

"but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

NB: Print size not only for visibility.

 

[BobRyan]

With recognition to DHK, who gave this Scripture, to Bob Ryan with his skew SDA view of sins being atoned for through a process of some 2000 years:

Making stuff up is not a compelling form of information exchange sir. Why do you keep doing it AS IF it would fool someone here?

I claim that the Atoning Sacrifice IS COMPLETED at the Cross (for the zillionth time). Each time I see you post without actually quoting the point in question - I have to go back to the actual data and there I find that there is a "Reason" you are simply 'quoting you' to accuse someone else.

I appeal for you to consider a return to truth and integrity - Please follow the points raised and respond to THEM instead of just making stuff up.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I thought one is punished for their sins because of their unbelief. ....

He who said the only sin punish is unbelief said nothing different. Why challenge him?

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

IF they are destroyed totally in the sense you so advocate, then John must have been lying when he said they have no rest day nor night.

My argument is that Rev 10 SHOWS that the wicked burn "IN The PRESENCE of the LAMB and of the Holy Ones" including the saints in Rev 14 "Who follow the Lamb wherever He goes". You seem to be ignoring the text as it suits your views sir.

I also argue that the wicked ARE tormented as Rev 14 says - but the text does not say "infinitely tormented" nor does it say "tormented eternally".

It is literally true sir - even the details there to which you do not approve.

As for Matt 10:28 GOD tells us there that in fiery hell "BOTH BODY AND soul are DESTROYED".

Your limited view destroyed does not line up with the Word of God's infinite wisdom of destroyed.

As GODs Word tells us in 2Peter 2 speaking of destruction by everlasting fire 'DESTRUCTION by REDUCING THEM TO ASHES".

You keep saying that to quote this fact of God's Word rather than to consistently IGNORE this part of the Word is not to " line up with the Word of God".

But how can you keep arguing that only IGNORING the Word of God is "lining up with it"???

What kind of logic is that sir??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Making stuff up is not a compelling form of information exchange sir. Why do you keep doing it AS IF it would fool someone here?

I claim that the Atoning Sacrifice IS COMPLETED at the Cross (for the zillionth time). Each time I see you post without actually quoting the point in question - I have to go back to the actual data and there I find that there is a "Reason" you are simply 'quoting you' to accuse someone else.

I appeal for you to consider a return to truth and integrity - Please follow the points raised and respond to THEM instead of just making stuff up.

In Christ,

Bob

GE:

And you think you can fool everyone all the time with your zillionth time repeation of the same rubbish. NOT ONLY THE SACRIFICE, BUT THE ATONEMENT IN TOTO HAD BEEN FINISHED AT THE CROSS THROUGH THE RESURRECTION-PRESENTATION OR OFFERING OF THE LIFE OF CHRIST.

That, is completed atone-MENT, or, "atonement MADE".

You know the difference as well as anybody else, but try to obscure it in order to justify your distortion of atonement. Yes, your blasphemous distortion of it!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Making stuff up is not a compelling form of information exchange sir. Why do you keep doing it AS IF it would fool someone here?

I claim that the Atoning Sacrifice IS COMPLETED at the Cross (for the zillionth time). Each time I see you post without actually quoting the point in question - I have to go back to the actual data and there I find that there is a "Reason" you are simply 'quoting you' to accuse someone else.

I appeal for you to consider a return to truth and integrity - Please follow the points raised and respond to THEM instead of just making stuff up.

In Christ,

Bob

GE:

Am I making stuff up? What is this?
Quote:
"As I have stated so many times we all need to pay attention to what the Bible actually says - in 1John 2:2 (NIV) the "Atoning Sacrifice" was completed at the cross - but the view God gives us in Lev 16 is that the PROCESS of atonement can not simply be truncated in vs 11 at the START - before the High Priestly role of Christ is completed.

However - you are right about one thing - ONCE he HAS ended that ministry (as we see at the end of Rev 15) THEN all who are atoned for are IN and since the process is done - the wicked remain outs. "Let he who is filthly be filthy still" is then pronounced.

So at the across the Atoning Sacrifice is sufficient for ALL - but at the end of the Atonement Process -- it is the SAINTS and ONLY the Saints that we see redeenmed in Dan 7:22 when at the conclusion of Christ's work "judgment is passed in favor of the saints"."

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

That is YOUR 'atonement-process of the last 2000 years.

I actually make a mistake here. That, is your 'atonement process since 1844 till now. No one knows how much time more God needs to check up his records.

 

[BobRyan]

With recognition to DHK, who gave this Scripture, to Bob Ryan with his skew SDA view of sins being atoned for through a process of some 2000 years:

.

INSTEAD of thatThe argument is that the atoning SACRIFICE is COMPLETED 2000 years ago at the cross.

Bob said
As I have stated so many times we all need to pay attention to what the Bible actually says - in 1John 2:2 (NIV) the "Atoning Sacrifice" was completed at the cross - but the view God gives us in Lev 16 is that the PROCESS of atonement can not simply be truncated in vs 11 at the START - before the High Priestly role of Christ is completed.

Christ is doing the high preistly work PREDICTED in Lev 16 - the shadow that POINTs to the Heb 7-10 reality of Christ's High Priestly work. But in that work Christ does not die nor does He suffer for sins- for He died "once for all' 2000 years ago as the atoning sacrifice for ALL sins.

Rather Christ engages in the work of High Priest - that results in "Judgment passed in FAVOR of the saints" as God tells us in Dan 7:22!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I'll tell you this, that if God needed that much time to check who should go to hell and who not, then he certainly needed infinity to punish the wicked for their sins.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:

"Christ engages in the work of High Priest - that results in "Judgment passed in FAVOR of the saints" as God tells us in Dan 7:22!"

GE:

Christ ENGAGED in the work of High Priest through death and resurrection, that RESULTED in "Judgment passed in FAVOR of the saints" as God tells us in Dan 7:22!