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finite SINNING punished with INFINITE torture?
- Thread starter BobRyan
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BobRyan said:
You are not fooling anyone but yourself Bob.
We have quoted Scripture. The sense or meaning of it is so plain that it needs no explanation. Christ appeared to put away sin--all sin--by the sacrifice of himself. He sacrificed himself, once and once for all. Your belief is akin to the Catholics unfortunately. The atonement was finished when Christ said "It is finished." (John 19:30). It is better to believe the Bible than the opinions of Bob.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
#1. My position is that Christ died once for all (Heb 10) - one atoning sacrifice for all of time
#2. My point is that his sacrifice pays the accumulated REAL debt of owed for each sin committed by each person in all of time. "Not for OUR sins only but FOR THE SINS of the WHOLE world" 1John 2:2 -- A very large and finite debt paid once for all by a very large and finite payment.
#3. As we saw in Luke 12 AND in Matt 18 this is FINITE debt OWED and paid.
Luke 12
45"But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
46the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
By not even following the discussion points you simply pronounce victory over your own post without actually addressing the points raised.
I think there are some on this board for whom those tactics do work - I am just not one of them sir. (But of course you already knew that -- so back to the point of the OP)
In Christ,
Bob
#2. My point is that his sacrifice pays the accumulated REAL debt of owed for each sin committed by each person in all of time. "Not for OUR sins only but FOR THE SINS of the WHOLE world" 1John 2:2 -- A very large and finite debt paid once for all by a very large and finite payment.
#3. As we saw in Luke 12 AND in Matt 18 this is FINITE debt OWED and paid.
Luke 12
45"But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
46the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
By not even following the discussion points you simply pronounce victory over your own post without actually addressing the points raised.
I think there are some on this board for whom those tactics do work - I am just not one of them sir. (But of course you already knew that -- so back to the point of the OP)
In Christ,
Bob
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: The ‘number’ of sins is not the question. The question is whether or not sin is infinite in its intrinsic nature or whether or not it is simply of finite importance and nature.
You consistently speak of sin as being finite, as if you could calculate mathematically the effects of sin, and in doing so place your finite grasp completely around the evil nature of sin. I can think of no other explanation to such an approach other than stating that such is a finite humanistic approach to the sin question that has no basis in fact, reason. or Scripture.
Sin is at its heart a 'spiritual act' of rebellion that cannot be measured by human instrumentality in finite terms. Spiritual matters are eternal, not finite, in nature. To look at sin as a finite matter, or the infinite show of God’s attributes to provide salvation from the eternal curse pronounced by Infinite Justice upon acts of disobedience as a mere ‘finite payment’ at a mere ‘finite occurance’ , is to set ones own finite human abilities above that of Infinite God, and to confuse that which is temporal and finite with that which is eternal and infinite. One is saying, God, we possess more knowledge of the intrinsic nature of sin than you do, and we with our superior finite judgment find sin a mere finite matter. Finding it as such, we declare your Word that clearly states your eternal judgment against it, and the 'infinite' show of your attributes on the cross, and your promise of infinite propitiation on behalf of those that love and serve you, as outside of the confines of our finite understanding. Therefore we cannot accept your wisdom in treating disobedience and sin in an eternal fashion.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
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BR:
"2:2 -- A very large and finite debt paid once for all by a very large and finite payment."
GE:
See how you fall victim to your own self! Am I reading you correctly, or have you made a typing error?
"2:2 -- A very large and finite debt paid once for all by a very large and finite payment."
GE:
See how you fall victim to your own self! Am I reading you correctly, or have you made a typing error?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
BR has proposed that sin and the payment for sin is a finite matter. I can think of no other system of thought that leads to a more fatalistic and determined outcome. Consider this idea for a minute. If sin is finite, and Christ paid a finite amount of suffering for the finite amount of sin, Christ could have suffered ONLY for the finite sins that the finite suffering paid for. Think about it. There are but two possible outcomes generated by such thought. Either Christ paid the sin debt for all, answering the end of universalism, or Christ suffered in vain, paying for a debt that is obviously ineffective in garnering its end.
If in fact Christ suffered for all sins of the world and paid the literal debt of them, what kind of wasteful economy does God run, paying for a debt in which the payment is obviously unable to succor its ends, i.e., the payment of the literal sin debt for all? Such an economy has Christ suffering more than the finite amount He needed to. The economy that BR presents is indeed a wasteful one, and as inaccurate and unbiblical as it is wasteful.
If in fact Christ suffered for all sins of the world and paid the literal debt of them, what kind of wasteful economy does God run, paying for a debt in which the payment is obviously unable to succor its ends, i.e., the payment of the literal sin debt for all? Such an economy has Christ suffering more than the finite amount He needed to. The economy that BR presents is indeed a wasteful one, and as inaccurate and unbiblical as it is wasteful.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
In the finite scenario that BR paints of the atonement, it is an exceedingly fatalistic one. If Christ paid a finite debt, that obviously only 'literally' pays the penalty of a finite amount of forgiven sin, and BR stands solidly behind the refutation of universalism, the truth is none other than only certain sins were actually atoned for. This being the case, and the atonement a thing of history, no other possibility exists for any other sins receiving an atonement other than the finite amount already paid for. This eliminates all possibility for any other than the elect being forgiven, thereby creating a completely fatalistic end for all others. If one is consistent taking BR’s stated position, one would have to conclude that God, by His refusal to accept the atonement of Christ on behalf of some, and by doing so eliminating any and all possibility of escape from judgment, in fact must predetermine the fate of not only those who will be saved, but those that will be damned. I believe it impossible to escape the inevitable conclusion that given BR’s position, God has indeed predestined the damned to eternal torment.
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It becomes necessary for Bob to take the position that he does. According to SDA theology Christ returned in 1844. When that prophecy was proven to be false, they proclaimed that he enetered into the inner sanctuary (the Most Holy Place), which is in heaven--though they have no proof of this--in 1844. This is tied into their doctrine of investigative judgement. Christ has not fully atoned for the sins of the world. He is still making an atonement for them, on an individual basis. He is currently doing an investigation of each sin of each individual.Heavenly Pilgrim said:
file:///C:/FundamentalBaptistLibrary2000/WWW/qindex.htm
Bob is forced to take the position he does because in SDA theology Jesus is still atoning for our sins, and every single sin must be investigated and thus atoned for.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Thanks DHK for the explanation. I had heard a little of it before but I suppose it did not register as well as now with your explanation.
To me, BR needs to answer theses simple questions. Are spiritual matters eternal or finite? Is the infinite show of the mercy and grace of God as witnessed in the atonement finite or infinite in nature?
Does His mercy endure infinitely or is it finite? If His atonement is a show of God’s mercy, and His mercy endureth forever, it would seem logical that the atonement has infinite value and application, and clearly not finite in scope. Any thoughts?
To me, BR needs to answer theses simple questions. Are spiritual matters eternal or finite? Is the infinite show of the mercy and grace of God as witnessed in the atonement finite or infinite in nature?
Does His mercy endure infinitely or is it finite? If His atonement is a show of God’s mercy, and His mercy endureth forever, it would seem logical that the atonement has infinite value and application, and clearly not finite in scope. Any thoughts?
Brother Bob
New Member
What about a "new" convert. Was he already chosen and forgiven at the Cross infinitly, or when he accepts Christ into his life? Also, if there is no future need for forgiveness, then why is Jesus our "advocate" if we do sin?
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: A great explanation of why sin is not a finite matter but one of infinite scope and duration.
Although agreeing with much of #2, Packer lands himself in logical error on this point IF he believes it was a literal payment. I would surmise that he probably does given the climate of today’s theological circles. Again, IF he does believe it was a literal payment for sins, he has trouble brewing on all sides. If He says, as the above post states, that the atonement provided ‘infinite satisfaction’ for the sins of mankind, he is either going to land in the trap of universalism, or the trap of presenting the atonement as less than effective to succor the stated objective, i.e. the infinite satisfaction of the sins of mankind.
The other issue is that if Packer denies universalism, you have the issue of predestined damnation via the atonement only covering the sins of the elect. This also would be in direct contradiction to his statement that the atonement was for the infinite satisfaction for the sins of mankind.
Although Packer indeed says some great things, he is in obvious trouble with what seems to me as his probable overriding emphasis on the atonement as being a literal payment, which it is not. If I am wrong in any way about his beliefs, I am sure open to learning the truth, and will retract or correct any statements I have made concerning his beliefs if necessary.
How about it Matt? Can you understand the problems I am trying to point out concerning any idea of the atonement involving a literal payment?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I say when he fulfills the conditions of repentance and faith as the gospel demands.
Yes, IF he sins in the future, he is in need of added forgiveness, that again will not come apart from those stated conditions. He would need to do his first works over again. Oh will we ever need an Advocate as we all stand before God in judgment as the Scriptures clearly teach that all will!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
in Matt 18 Christ represents the debt owed as finite.
In Luke 12 Christ represents some as receving FEW stripes as opposed to those who receive MANY - he does not say "ALL get INFINITE torture".
The point remains.
Christ does not represent that God rewards FINITE sinning with INFINITE torture.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
DHK said:
DHK's ability to spin history and facts into a jumbled mess of misinfomration is better than my ability to untangle each knot of untruth he spins.
But for the "objective reader".
The SDA church formed in the 1860's.
The 1844 teaching was something that a Baptist preacher by the name of William Miller taught based on his understanding of Dan 7, 8 and 9.
While it is true that the Millerite interpretation of Dan was in error - it is NOT true that the Millerites viewed themselves even REMOTELY as "SDAs".
Glaringly obvious to any student of history -- and this little rabbit trail does nothing for DHKs argument so far - it only gives him some hope in spinning the sujbect for a bit.
Try again sir.
In SDA theology the Atoning Sacrifice of Christ was completed ONCE FOR ALL time at the cross as stated in 1john 2:2.
But as Lev 16 points out -the atonement PROCESS must INCLUDE the high priestly work of Christ as we SEE HIM DOING in Heb 8-10.
DHK may whine that we are not turning a blind eye to this inconvenient fact in Lev 16 POINTING to the Work of Christ as our High Priest -- but it does not help him in the least when it comes to the salient point of this thread. He seems content to use it to misdirect the reader.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
#1. My position is that Christ died once for all (Heb 10) - one atoning sacrifice for all of time
#2. My point is that his sacrifice pays the accumulated REAL debt of owed for each sin committed by each person in all of time. "Not for OUR sins only but FOR THE SINS of the WHOLE world" 1John 2:2 -- A very large and finite debt paid once for all by a very large and finite payment.
#3. As we saw in Luke 12 AND in Matt 18 this is FINITE debt OWED and paid.
Luke 12
45"But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
46the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
#2. My point is that his sacrifice pays the accumulated REAL debt of owed for each sin committed by each person in all of time. "Not for OUR sins only but FOR THE SINS of the WHOLE world" 1John 2:2 -- A very large and finite debt paid once for all by a very large and finite payment.
#3. As we saw in Luke 12 AND in Matt 18 this is FINITE debt OWED and paid.
Luke 12
45"But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
46the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Less smoke - more fire.
My argument is that Matt 18 SHOWS the debt to be finite.
Luke 12 ALSO shows this - even to the point of contrasting the FEW stripes of some to the MANY of others --instead of proclaming "INFINITE torture for all".
There is no need to ALSO fully define EVERY cause and mechanism in the sinful nature before one accepts the teaching of Christ on the FINITE nature of the debt owed in Matt 18 and Luke 12.
In both of those cases the debt owed is MORE than the sinner is willing to pay since as Christ states in Matt 10:28-- in fiery hell "BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED" and that destruction includes the suffering and TORMENT we see being described in Rev 14:10 taking place IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb AND of His Holy Angels - as the saints are continually WITH CHRIST wherever He goes!
Hmm - Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed by EVERLASTING fire (also called ETERNAL fire).
Perhaps the objective reader will tolerate some Bible texts dealing with that very subject --
Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]
Christ argues that we should not fear with wicked men plan to do – and in fact DO – to the saints. “Kill the body” since in those things they are not able to “kill” the soul. Rather fear what God plans to do – and in fact WILL do in the fiery hell to come – to “destroy BOTH body AND soul” IN fiery hell -- doing that which sinful men CAN NOT do to their fellow man. He does not merely say – “fear Him who could choose to destroy BOTH body and soul if he should ever be inclined to do such a thing” – rather He states it in the affirmative saying WHERE and when he will do it “IN fiery hell”
Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.
2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God. Just as God said that “BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED” in fiery hell Matt 10:28 – so we see that the everlasting fire – the eternal fire of Jude “destroyed” the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: We are finite and cannot but through a glass darkly understanding the real import of eternal or infinite concepts. (like the first pair trying to really comprehend the intrinsic nature of evil when all they had known experimentally was good)
Jesus often resorted to using illustrations that cannot be made to walk on our four legs, as if though they were a perfect representation of the facts used to illustrate truth lying in a different realm. They serve to illustrate concepts to our finite minds, the illustration lying in one realm and the object of the illustrration lying in totally another.
Often the finite is substituted to illustrate the infinite, the material to illustrate the spiritual, etc. Eternal separation from God is simply not finite Bob, and is the Scriptural penalty for sin. All who know not Christ will find their lot in hell according to Scripture, where there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, and their worm dieth not. Man is warned throughout Scripture of the eternal consequences of sin. The illustration in Luke 12 does nothing to take away from that inevitable fate. Every Scripture does not have to repeat ‘infinite torture’ in order for one to clearly identify the fate of the wicked as eternal in duration and tormenting in nature. To believe otherwise is simply folly.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I do not argue that to miss out on eternity is not an eternal consequence. But the "debt" of pain and suffering "owed" - the TORTURE and torment OWED is finite as we see in Matt 18 and Luke 12.
Luke 12
45"But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
46the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
Luke 12
45"But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
46the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Is sin infinite in nature or finite in nature?
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