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finite SINNING punished with INFINITE torture?
- Thread starter BobRyan
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You don't get it do you? Perhaps you need to look in the dictionary for a definition of a city. Yes the cities were destroyed. No one will argue with that. What is a city. A city is composed of people. Did you ever see the WTC towers that were IN New York city. They were in the city. The city is the people, not the things that are in the city. Without the people there is no city. The structures were burned because of the sin of the people living there. The structures were not condemned; the people were. The structures had not sinned; the people did. Your focus on the Scriptures is all wrong. You rationalize your way through these two passages in order to defend a heretical view that you defiantly hold to. People make up cities, not buildings.BobRyan said:
There is a town a ways north of here that is made up of igloos. So what makes up the town? The igloos or the people? What will happen if they happen to have an unusually warm summer? Will the town disappear. Not really. The people will still be there. The people make up the town, not the structures that are in the town. I hope that should be painfully obviously to you.
According to current reference books I live in a city of a population of almost one million people. That is how it is defined. The city, in almost every reference book I can find is defined by its population, and by the location on a map. The # of people at X location is the city that I live in, that you live in. It is not the structures. They are irrelevant, and sometimes just a bonus.
Now go back and study those passages, keeping in mind what a city is.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You are correct - the content highlighted in blue ANd underlined is that which is being devotedly "ignored" by DHK as he insists that Jude 7 makes no reference to CITIES being subjected to everlasting fire.
All can clearly SEE the inconvenient facts in the text that debunk DHK's position here. And it is just as easy to see why he "needs" the texts not to be worded as they are.
It is not easily apparent how DHK thinks that insulting those who notice these glaring facts would strengthen his argument.
In Christ,
Bob
Obviously cities and towns contain people. But it is equally obvious the account of the destruction of S&G is an account of the physical destruction of buildings and people - and specifically of their reduction to ashes - as per 2 Peter 2:6. I don't think anyone is denying that the people were tunred to ashes as well.
And what is this an example of? As stated in both Jude 7 and 2 Peter 2:6, it is an example of what will happen to the wicked - they will be turned into ash (i.e. annihilated). So we very logically conclude that this is what "eternal fire" does - it reduces to ashes. It does not preserve.
And what is this an example of? As stated in both Jude 7 and 2 Peter 2:6, it is an example of what will happen to the wicked - they will be turned into ash (i.e. annihilated). So we very logically conclude that this is what "eternal fire" does - it reduces to ashes. It does not preserve.
I do not understand your take on the meaning of immortality. The mere fact that God has no beginning is no justification to change the meaning of the word "immortality" when applied to God so that it entails this concept of "beginning-less-ness".DHK said:
Let's say that I am born rich. If someone says "No one is rich except Andre" he means just that no one is presently rich except Andre. He does not mean "no one is born rich except Andre". The fact that I was born rich does not mean that the word "rich" has this "born rich" connotation bundled into it when applied to me.
Perhaps I have been putting a slightly different slant on it.Andre said:
The meaning is that God in his essence is immortal. He alone has the quality of deathlesness. All his creatures are subject to death. Thus we, as subject to death, will one day "put on" immortality which can only come from him. Barnes explains it this way:
The cities were destoyed--that is the structures were burned up.Andre said:
The cities were condemned--that is the people faced eternal destruction or punishment in hell. This is the only possible meaning when you take the two verses together. Why would there be an eternal fire if that which was to annihilated only took a short period of time. We had an unfortunate incident in our city last night. A fire went through a small college. It only took about three hours to destroy the entire college. How much faster will Hell take to annihilate a city or anything else that gets in its way. But this fire is everlasting. It is ridiculous for the Lord to keep an everlasting fire burning for naught. These things are recorded in history. The fact that hell is burning today doesn't teach us anything about Sodom and Gomorrah. The fact that it is recorded in Scripture does.
The fact that they are enduring eternal punishment also teaches us a lesson. Otherwise: eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die--and there is no consequence for your sin. That is not what the Bible teaches.
This is true only to the extent that you bring the following view to the Jude text: "eternal fire" has to mean a fire that never will be extinguished and which will contain non-perishing human persons". This is a possible reading, of course, but on balance I think the evidence suggests otherwise.DHK said:
First, the fact that the fire is described as "eternal" is not a warrant to conclude that there are people in that fire who, against the normal effects of fire, are not actually destroyed, but persist forever. This is a very unconventional way for fire to behave.
Second, there are Biblical precedents for use of references to "eternality" in an exaggerated form. There is a text in Samuel where a person is described as living in a certain earth-bound place "forever". Clearly, this is a poetic use of "forever". There is also the prediction by Isaiah about the destruction of Edom, where smoke is described as "rising forever" from Edom. I understand that Edom was indeed destroyed after Isaiah wrote these words. Yet no smoke rises from Edom today.
Third, it ignores the rather clear identification of a fire that reduces things to ashes (from teh 2 Peter text) with the "eternal" fire from Jude 7.
Fourth, it forces a re-intepretation of many Bibical texts from both testaments that state that the unredeemed are ultimately destroyed.
On balance, I think the above arguments are more powerful than the argument that "eternal fire" from Jude 7 refers to the never-ending torment to be endured by the residents of S&G.
There is not one Scripture in the Bible that forces a re-interpretation for a literal eternal punishment. All scriptures concerning eternity teach eternal life and eternal damnation. Not one points to annihilation of the wicked when taken in its context and is properly exegeted.Andre said:
BR:
"Each sin is its own sin -- each sin requires its own payment its own debt. For each sin the debt is EITHER infinite OR it is not."
GE:
Christ atoned no sin; He atoned sinners and FOR, their sins. Sin is impossible to atone; if it could be atoned, sin would be acceptable to God. 'Payment' therefore, in the Biblical sense of atonement, is impossible for any one or, all sin.
"Each sin is its own sin -- each sin requires its own payment its own debt. For each sin the debt is EITHER infinite OR it is not."
GE:
Christ atoned no sin; He atoned sinners and FOR, their sins. Sin is impossible to atone; if it could be atoned, sin would be acceptable to God. 'Payment' therefore, in the Biblical sense of atonement, is impossible for any one or, all sin.
BR:
"Each sin is its own sin -- each sin requires its own payment its own debt. For each sin the debt is EITHER infinite OR it is not."
GE:
This is where the SDA concept of an 'investigative judgement' derives from. Forgiveness must be acquired for every sin as it occurs, and Jesus all the time makes that atonement for it.
"Each sin is its own sin -- each sin requires its own payment its own debt. For each sin the debt is EITHER infinite OR it is not."
GE:
This is where the SDA concept of an 'investigative judgement' derives from. Forgiveness must be acquired for every sin as it occurs, and Jesus all the time makes that atonement for it.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I believe that such a view is in direct contradiction to the Word of God. The atonement has been made and completed. It is finished, once for all. What the atonement does not do in and of itself, is to satisfy the debt contracted by specific sins. Specific sins are only forgiven as we complete the conditions for forgiveness God has mandated for us to do in order for the blood to be applied to our specific sins, i.e., repentance and faith. The atonement Christ completed on the cross was a satisfaction of the sin debt of the entire world, building a bridge, or making a way that God could indeed forgive all sins (other than blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) under certain conditions, while still maintaining the law and upholding its just penalty.
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I agree with you, HP, Remember I illustrated what the SDA-view is; not mine. The post creates the impression it's mine.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: That is correct. I understood your post just as you now reiterate. I believe we do have much agreement in this issue. Man was and is created a living soul/spirit and will inhabit either heaven or hell for eternity. To deny this is to deny an extremely easy to understand clear Biblical reality.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Andre said:
Exactly correct. You are right - it is glaringly obvious to all readers.
But we have to admit that some "need" to ignore that detail sir.
True again. And it is significant that the word for "Eternal fire" in Jude 7 is the SAME Word translated as "EverLASTING fire" in Matt 25:41.
As God's Word states these cities AND the cities around them ARE "exhibited as EXAMPLES" of undergoing the punishment of everlasting fire.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
This is yet "again" a case of "you quoting you" to argue that someone else's view is wrong.
The SDA position IS NOT that Christ atones for sins with each sin comitted!!
Obvious to anyone actually READING the SDA Fundamental Beliefs document NOT obvious to someone "quoting themselves".
The DEBT (both past and FUTURE) for each sin was placed upon Christ at the cross - and there he paid the debt for ALL- ONCE for ALL time.
MY statement had to do with HOW that debt is determined (God the Father placing upon Christ the exact finite torment owed for EACH sin) the CERTIFICATE OF DEBT decreed by the law as OWED for EACH and every single sin. By contrast - your bogus statement that followed was simply "you quoting you again". A fun thing to do if one likes playing that kind of game. I don't do it.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Andre said:
This is true. God posses immortality - He alone "possess it" because "He has life WIHIN Himself". No one else does not even the Angels.
Just as the fact that God is ALL knowing IS NOT the same thing as saying He is "from eternity past" or "from everlasting" so also the fact that He alone posses immortality is not the same thing as saying He is all-knowing OR that He is from eternity past. Each attribute STANDS on its own!
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
DHK said:
I appreciate the fact that you have to dance around the obvious point in Jude 7 that the cities themsevles are SEEN are EXHIBITE FOR US today as EXAMPLES of the destruction by everlasting fire.
But some of the girations you do in that dance are.. well...inneffective against the text of scripture sir.
Allow me to illustrate in a way that EVERY objective reader EASILY gets on this point. Please note the inconvenient details highlighted in blue sir.
Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.
2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God. Just as God said that “BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED” in fiery hell Matt 10:28 – so we see that the everlasting fire – the eternal fire of Jude “destroyed” the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Don’t miss the fact that eternal fire is explicitly said to have already fallen on earth. We have a clear and literal example of eternal fire in history according to the Word of God. But the man-made traditions of some Christian groups today would this Bible truth and spin it very far from where we find it in scripture.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
DHK said:
As was pointed out in the previous post -Your argument has completely collapsed here - why in the world do you resort to such ad hominem tactics each time you find youself without a successful position?
This is just getting way too predictable.
In Christ,
Bob
I am quite capable of reading without the "Christmas Tree" effect Bob. It is more distracting to me as I rarely know what color is hi-lighting your point.BobRyan said:
Besides, I am a fundamentalist. The Bible has absolutes, and I see things in black and white.:thumbs:
Back to the Christmas tree! "They are destroyed" What is destroyed? Don't you ever read or comprehend what you read?
First, a spirit cannot be destroyed. Demonstrate through Scripture where a spirit can be annihliated. Demonstrate through Scripture where "destroy" means "annihilation" when referring to the "spirit."
Within the last couple of days, a college building burned down. It was destroyed to ashes. It happened at night time, so no lives were lost. The building was destroyed. Though the building of the college was destroyed, the college lives on. The students and the faculty are still alive. The school still exists. The structure is no more but the college still exists. It doesn't close its "doors" just because the building burned down. It has more resolve than that. It can find another building, other premises; even temporary ones for now. Just because structures burn, does not mean that the place itself is annihilated. Your logic is very skewed. It doesn't even make sense. If you remember the great Chicago fire that roared through Chicago destroying most of it--Does not Chicago still exist today. What about the great London fire in history gone by? Does London still exist today? Structures burn. That doesn't destroy the city. People make up the city; not the structures.
Nero burnt the city of Rome. It will be an event forever remembered in history. But Rome still exists today. It is remembered because of the people, the history of the people, the geography, the culture, etc.; not so much because of the buildings. You have a very twisted logic.
God destroyed the structures of the Sodom and Gomorrah in just a few minutes. Lot's wife looked back and the cities were already destroyed; she herself was turned into a pillar of salt. This was a lesson for us to remember for all time. It is written into God's unchanging Word which indeed will last forever.
But the eternal fire will burn, not for the structures, but for the condemnation of the wickedness of the people who inhabited those people. What was wrong with the structures? Nothing!! It was the people that were involved in homosexuality, lesbianism, etc., that God so severely condemned. Even Lot offered his two virgin daughters to the ungodly crowd to be sexually abused. God destroyed these cities (no, the inhabitants of these cities) with an eternal fire, for only spirits can endure forever the wrath of God. Spirits will last forever. And at the GWT, they will receive their resurrected bodies and final sentence and be cast into the LOF for all eternity. There is no annihilation, and not one verse in Scripture that teaches. They "shall be tormented day and night forever and ever" can only have one meaning (Rev.20:10).
Eternal fire is said to be present becasue hell is present. That ought to be painfully obvious to all who are in hell. If you could communicate with the rich man who cried out to Abraham and Lazarus, I am sure that he would concur.
The only tradition that is spun is a relatively new tradition not previously taught in early church history--a heretical doctrine called "the annihilation of the wicked."
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