finite SINNING punished with INFINITE torture?

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

We see a good picture of existance after death in the story of the widow woman's son who died in 1 Kings.

The boy died. Elijah stretched himself out over the boy and prayed that the boys soul return into him. The boy's soul returns and he is alive once more.

Physical death was a separation of soul and body. Neither ceased to exist. The body was still there. The soul was still alive, albeit separated from the body. If the soul had ceased to exist, Elijah's prayer that the boy's soul return to him would have been ineffective. How could it return if it was no more?

The same goes with spiritual death, the soul that is spiritually dead when one dies physically will continue to exist, albeit his existance will be separated from God.

Not hard to understand at all.

 

[Andre]

We see a good picture of existance after death in the story of the widow woman's son who died in 1 Kings.

The boy died. Elijah stretched himself out over the boy and prayed that the boys soul return into him. The boy's soul returns and he is alive once more.

Physical death was a separation of soul and body. Neither ceased to exist. The body was still there. The soul was still alive, albeit separated from the body. If the soul had ceased to exist, Elijah's prayer that the boy's soul return to him would have been ineffective. How could it return if it was no more?

The same goes with spiritual death, the soul that is spiritually dead when one dies physically will continue to exist, albeit his existance will be separated from God.

Not hard to understand at all.

With all due respect, this argument only establishes the plausibility of the position you support. The same account harmonizes entirely with the view that the soul is not an entity that can survive apart from the body. A "soul = life force" or "life spark" view works equally well with this text. And to anticipate a possible objection: a "soul" does not have to "go somewhere" in order to later return to a body any more than your consciousness "goes somewhere" when you fall asleep.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

It may be only a plausibility for those who do not believe the Word of God is true in every verse.

But for those of us who believe the Word of God, it is a reality.

But don't worry, Andre. Those who only believe God's Word as a plausibility will one day bow before Him and admit they were wrong and that hell and eternal torture is, in fact, a reality.

 

[Andre]

It may be only a plausibility for those who do not believe the Word of God is true in every verse.

But for those of us who believe the Word of God, it is a reality.

But don't worry, Andre. Those who only believe God's Word as a plausibility will one day bow before Him and admit they were wrong and that hell and eternal torture is, in fact, a reality.

Ooookay.

Why not reply with something substantive instead of this dismissive response. How do you respond to my assertion that the text you referred is also consistent with the position that there is no immortal soul?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The OS isn't meaningless; it gives an idea of the distorted views of SDA thinking on both sin and the justice of God.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Ooookay.

Why not reply with something substantive instead of this dismissive response. How do you respond to my assertion that the text you referred is also consistent with the position that there is no immortal soul?

I say hogwash! The Word of God declares the soul to be immortal. The soul of the child did not die with the body. The souls in hell are not dead. They are very much alive and living the very torture Jesus and the Apostles warned of.

 

[DHK]

Ooookay.

Why not reply with something substantive instead of this dismissive response. How do you respond to my assertion that the text you referred is also consistent with the position that there is no immortal soul?

1 Corinthians 15:53-54 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Andre]

I say hogwash! The Word of God declares the soul to be immortal. The soul of the child did not die with the body. The souls in hell are not dead. They are very much alive and living the very torture Jesus and the Apostles warned of.

OK. I sense that we do not have exactly the same style of debating things. When you post something that it is not simply a statement, I may well respond.

 

[DHK]

With all due respect, this argument only establishes the plausibility of the position you support. The same account harmonizes entirely with the view that the soul is not an entity that can survive apart from the body. A "soul = life force" or "life spark" view works equally well with this text. And to anticipate a possible objection: a "soul" does not have to "go somewhere" in order to later return to a body any more than your consciousness "goes somewhere" when you fall asleep.

The Bible does not bow down to your definitions; nor to your ideas; nor to your opinions; nor to what you deem plausible.

The Bible stands alone. It alone is its only foundation. One must accept it by faith. If you do not accept it as the Word of God, then Christianity is not for you. A Christian is a follower of Christ and of his teachings which are recorded in the Scriptures.
There are no contradictions in the Bible. It interprets itself. When it says "shall be tormented day and night," then that is what it means. Likewise in Mat.25:41, where it says "punished with everlasting fire," then that is what it means.
Or, in Revelation 14:10-11, "he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone... And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night," then that is what it means.

These Scriptures (and many others like them) cannot be ignored. You can try to talk around them, allegorize them, speak of them figuratively, redefine them, but the fact remains they still exist, and the meaning does not change. They teach very plainly an eternal punishment for the wicked--the unbeliever. To teach otherwise is simply a plain denial of the Word of God.

 

[Andre]

The Bible does not bow down to your definitions; nor to your ideas; nor to your opinions; nor to what you deem plausible.

The Bible stands alone. It alone is its only foundation. One must accept it by faith. If you do not accept it as the Word of God, then Christianity is not for you. A Christian is a follower of Christ and of his teachings which are recorded in the Scriptures.
There are no contradictions in the Bible. It interprets itself. When it says "shall be tormented day and night," then that is what it means. Likewise in Mat.25:41, where it says "punished with everlasting fire," then that is what it means.
Or, in Revelation 14:10-11, "he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone... And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night," then that is what it means.

These Scriptures (and many others like them) cannot be ignored. You can try to talk around them, allegorize them, speak of them figuratively, redefine them, but the fact remains they still exist, and the meaning does not change. They teach very plainly an eternal punishment for the wicked--the unbeliever. To teach otherwise is simply a plain denial of the Word of God.

Again, not exactly the level of debate that I am interested in pursuing. To each his own, I guess.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

If you respond with truth from God's Word, I will agree. But when the clear understanding of God's Word is twisted into a lie to say that man will be annihilated and not suffer eternally for his rejection of God's Son, I have to stand on the Word of God and disagree with the lie.

Hell is a reality.
Death is a reality.
The lake of fire and brimstone is a reality

One day, death will be cast into the lake of fire. It will be destroyed.
Then hell will be cast into that lake of fire. It will not be destroyed, for death is no more.
Then, those who rejected Christ and chose to live the lie and continue in their sin will be cast into that lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet is. They will not be destroyed, as death is no more.
They will be tortured in that lake of fire for all eternity. No way out.

They made their bed, now they must sleep in it.

 

[DHK]

Again, not exactly the level of debate that I am interested in pursuing. To each his own, I guess.

I suppose not! In the last two posts I have quoted to you four passages of Scripture, all of which have gone unanswered. You have no Scriptural base for your belief system. It cannot be demonstrated with the Bible. No wonder you say "to each his own." A neglect of the Scriptures is a neglect of eternity itself.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Again, not exactly the level of debate that I am interested in pursuing. To each his own, I guess.

GE:

Well, friend, if DHK's post offered you not the best of opportunity to debate in the best of ways, you have shot yourself in the foot, no one else.

I would like though to ask DHK, how do you bring together the ideas of the 'immortal' and the 'corruptible (that) must put on incorruptibility"?

 

[Andre]

Consider Jude 7 and 2 Peter 6

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire

if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly

The very real problem the "eternal torment" proponent faces is the following. He cannot believe that the objects that are burned in Jude 7 are the physical towns. Why? Because in order for "eternal fire" to refer to the neverending punishment that the lost will experience, the fire has to be burning people, not buildings. Obviously, S&G are not burning today. So far so good.

Now we introduce 2 Peter 2:6. This time it is stated that the fire burned something to ashes. So this time the "eternal torment" supporter has to believe the the objects that are burned are the buildings and the structures, since by the dictates of the "eternal torment" belief, the unredeemed are not burned to ashes, they are maintained in a state of burning forever.

If this inconsistency were not enough of a problem, the "eternal torment" supporter has to explain how the reduction of S&G to ashes can be an "example of what is going to happen to the ungodly".

So I will ask, how does the reduction of the physical towns of S&G to ashes serve as an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly, if the ungodly are in fact never reduced to ashes, but instead preserved in a perpetual state of burning?

 

[BobRyan]

Andre -

Excellent summary of the problem for those still holding to the man-made tradition of "eternal torture" as each of the positions defined by that view are challenged and debunked in the clear teaching on the subject of "Body AND SOUL DESTROYED" in fiery hell. A Destruction that is fully laid out for us "by EXAMPLE" in Jude 7 and 2Peter 2.



In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Having failed to answer the serious issues that arise from the Bible definition of "destroy" for both "Body and soul" in Matt 10, Jude 7 and 2Peter 2 -- DHK switches to Rev 14 arguing in essence that if we simply accept the Bible teaching that "God DESTROYS" both body AND soul in fiery hell as is pointed about in that argument THEN we are faced with a contradiction with Rev 14.

There are no contradictions in the Bible. It interprets itself. When it says "shall be tormented day and night," then that is what it means. Likewise in Mat.25:41, where it says "punished with everlasting fire," then that is what it means.
Or, in Revelation 14:10-11, "he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone... And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night," then that is what it means.

These Scriptures (and many others like them) cannot be ignored.

Agreed. Though there are NOT "many like them".

The Everlasting fire mentioned in Matt 25 is given by specific EXAMPLE in Jude 7 where the SAME term is used to describe the fate of the wicked.

We simply accept it and SEE that the term IS USED consistently to define that which DESTROYS by "reducing to ashes" as the BIBLE says!

But in the case of Rev 14 we have something that leaves the wicked in tormant and without rest the entire time they are being tortured. (Finite though that may be).

We also have the point that this ALL takes place IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb AND of His Holy Angels - where ALSO the saints of God are as stated in Rev 14:2-5

AND We have the fact that John is in fact using the SAME terms about "Smoke rising up forever" as was ALREADY used to describe the destruction seen by Isaiah. It refers to to the memory of the event going on forever - as an eternal reminder.

It is only eiegesis that wants to ignore these inconvenient details... time after time after time.

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 14
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger[/b]; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 ""And the [b]smoke[/b] of their torment goes up forever[/b] and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.''
12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.


Is 34
8 For the LORD has a day of vengeance, A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.[/b]
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch.
10 [b]It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But [b]pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it[/b]; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness.[/quote]

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Isaiah 34:11 (KJVSL) But the cormorant <qa'ath> and the bittern <qippowd> shall possess <yarash> it; the owl <yanshuwph> also and the raven <`oreb> shall dwell <shakan> in it: and he shall stretch out <natah> upon it the line <qav> of confusion <tohuw>, and the stones <'eben> of emptiness <bohuw>. {cormorant: or, pelican}

The bittern is not a hedgehog, Bob. It is a type of bird. Notice it is all birds in the verse. Since when have you seen a hedgehog fly?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 ""And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever;

they have no rest day and night,

those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.''

Tell me Bob. since when have you seen smoke worshipping someone? Since when can one see smoke tortured? It is not the smoke that is tortured, it is those who worship the beast and his image... it is those who receive the mark of his name who have no rest day nor night. Those are the tormented ones. And they have no rest. They are not burned to ashes. They are not annihilated.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

John the Baptist warned of the 'wrath to come' telling people to repent.

Why would anyone need to fear the wrath to come if they would only feel it for a few minutes, if not less?

Tell ya what Bob, I challenge you to go into your backyard and start a bonfire and then jump in the middle of it and stand there and see how long you can stay in that fire before your blood begins to boil and you skin literally is cooked. I bet you would not last long at all.

Yet God's Word says that those who assign themselves to the lake of fire (which is going to be much hotter than that bonfire). through their rejection of the Son (which, by the way, includes those who reject His Holy Word), will have no rest day nor night. The Word of God says they will be tormented for ever and ever.

You seem to equate that which we know as fire with that which God calls the lake burning with fire and brimstone. They are not the same. That fire, unlike the bonfire, will never be extinguished... and the resurrected body of the dead will be one that will burn for all eternity and feel every single moment of it.