Fire

[HisWitness]

I made no false assumptions. I said you clearly do not believe in a literal hell. You've denied that there is an eternal hell. I said, "I'd wager" that you had an unbelieving family member or friend die. Wager means bet or gamble on. Doesn't mean i flatly assume the truth of my statement.



That makes no sense. You feel sorry for me because I believe that God is just and merciful? How is that view of God barbaric? Justice and mercy are not incompatible my friend. Those are two attributes clearly assigned to God in His inerrant word. You however believe in a god who doesn't have justice. Only your definition of 'love.'



Thee? What are we in 17th century England?

Not taught in our Bibles?

I urge you to look at this.
http://carm.org/hell
It's simple and straight to the point

I do believe in Justice from God and in his Love likewise--his mercy and love will outshine his Justice and judgement though

 

[RLBosley]

I do believe in Justice from God and in his Love likewise--his mercy and love will outshine his Justice and judgement though

Rhetoric. Everything you post is emotional rhetoric. Please provide some scripture to back up your belief. And for the record you DO believe in universal reconciliation yes?

 

[DrJamesAch]

.

can you explain why that view of HELL is not even in the old testament at all ?

Actually, it IS in the OT. Isaiah 5:14

"Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it."

Furthermore, all the references in the NT by Christ are technically still considered OT because the NT did not become effective until the death and resurrection of Christ. Hebrews 9:16-17. So even though what we are reading in hindsight is called the NT, the actual events that were reported were reported while they were still under the OT.
This is however, irrelevant since we ARE under the NT, and the NT is perfectly clear about sin, judgment, hell and the lake of fire.

the ones who took their children and burned them alive to a false god--God condemned that and said that thought of doing such has that NEVER entered his mind to do so ?

God condemned this because it was murder, not because fire was or was not used, and the fact that they were sacrificing to a pagan god. God Himself used fire to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah as well as the prophets of Baal in 1 Kings 18-19.

After all such an important subject--would it not be recorded in the old testament for us and esp for the people of God before the New was given to them ??

Answered above.

God is Just and Fair in Judgement--not like some make him out to be a barbarian though.

And it is precisely the fact that God is just that His justice requires as much in judgment as it does in mercy. God IS being fair in His judgment because He has been longsuffering not willing that any should perish. If you get bitten by a snake, and I offer you an antiserum to counteract the poison and you refuse it, it's not my fault if you die ITS YOURS.

Jonah got mad at God for granting Nin. repentance --they should have been judged and cast into HELL as you will say.

Jonah got mad at God for SAVING them because they repented at his preaching. We all SHOULD go to hell because that's what we deserve. That is what mercy is, not getting what we rightly deserve as sinners which God in His grace overlooks when the blood of Christ is applied to us.

Why do people get mad that the Mercy of God far outweighs his judgements ?

For one, that is subjective. We can't argue for who gets mad and who doesn't because that is a statistical probability that can not be analyzed here or proven. Mercy only outweighs judgment to the extent that mercy avoids the judgment. Mercy tips the scales, but it is not a universal application. If a person refuses to trust Christ, they have willingly chose to be on the wrong side of the scale.

God's intent through Christ was redemption of fallen man--I understand your view I once held it but God shined his light upon my ignorance :love2::love2:

God's intent was to also create a perfect world. God never INTENDED or DESIRED that Adam would sin but yet Adam's choice conflicted with what God intended and desired.

final thought--that view that you hold only leads to a selfish and vengeful attitude that doesn't reflect the true love of God at all.

God is a God of vengeance:

"Vengeance is MINE, I will repay saith the Lord" Romans 12:19

"Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." Revelation 18:20

"In flaming fire taking VENGEANCE on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" 2 Thess 1:8.

It is your emotionalism and human reasoning that are conflict with the Bible, not the love of, or justice of God that is in question.

 

[HisWitness]

Actually, it IS in the OT. Isaiah 5:14

"Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it."

Furthermore, all the references in the NT by Christ are technically still considered OT because the NT did not become effective until the death and resurrection of Christ. Hebrews 9:16-17. So even though what we are reading in hindsight is called the NT, the actual events that were reported were reported while they were still under the OT.
This is however, irrelevant since we ARE under the NT, and the NT is perfectly clear about sin, judgment, hell and the lake of fire.


God condemned this because it was murder, not because fire was or was not used, and the fact that they were sacrificing to a pagan god. God Himself used fire to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah as well as the prophets of Baal in 1 Kings 18-19.


Answered above.


And it is precisely the fact that God is just that His justice requires as much in judgment as it does in mercy. God IS being fair in His judgment because He has been longsuffering not willing that any should perish. If you get bitten by a snake, and I offer you an antiserum to counteract the poison and you refuse it, it's not my fault if you die ITS YOURS.



Jonah got mad at God for SAVING them because they repented at his preaching. We all SHOULD go to hell because that's what we deserve. That is what mercy is, not getting what we rightly deserve as sinners which God in His grace overlooks when the blood of Christ is applied to us.



For one, that is subjective. We can't argue for who gets mad and who doesn't because that is a statistical probability that can not be analyzed here or proven. Mercy only outweighs judgment to the extent that mercy avoids the judgment. Mercy tips the scales, but it is not a universal application. If a person refuses to trust Christ, they have willingly chose to be on the wrong side of the scale.



God's intent was to also create a perfect world. God never INTENDED or DESIRED that Adam would sin but yet Adam's choice conflicted with what God intended and desired.



God is a God of vengeance:

"Vengeance is MINE, I will repay saith the Lord" Romans 12:19

"Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." Revelation 18:20

"In flaming fire taking VENGEANCE on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" 2 Thess 1:8.

It is your emotionalism and human reasoning that are conflict with the Bible, not the love of, or justice of God that is in question.

your Hell old testament scripture is that of Hades.Sheol which was the grave where all dead folks went--not an eternal fire burning tormenting place.

 

[DrJamesAch]

your Hell old testament scripture is that of Hades.Sheol which was the grave where all dead folks went--not an eternal fire burning tormenting place.

You are looking at this backwards. Hell is not used to describe Hades and Sheol, but Sheol and Hades used to describe hell. Even my unconverted Jewish fellows understand the Hebrew implication in these verses.

But notice that in Revelation 20, HELL is cast into the lake of fire. Hell gives up its dead in Revelation 20:13 so it is clear that hell has always been used as a jail for unbelievers who are then sent to prison (lake of fire) for eternity.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Are you a 7th Day Adventist or a Jehovah's Witness? Or do you just believe their view on Hades and Sheol.

 

[RLBosley]

your Hell old testament scripture is that of Hades.Sheol which was the grave where all dead folks went--not an eternal fire burning tormenting place.

Debatable.

Regardless it doesn't matter.

Even if God only revealed hell in the New Testament scriptures (the first five books of which at least partly occur DURING the Old Covenant era). then that is good enough. All scripture has one ultimate Author - namely God. He has revealed Himself progressively through time and through the word. We honestly don't know much about God if we only go off of Genesis, but God reveals more about Himself and the universe He's created in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers etc... all the way to Revelation.

It honestly makes sense that we don't have much on hell until Christ came, because until then we only had the "shadows" of salvation in Christ, He came and now we have the substance! Same with hell - previously there were the "shadows" and now the fullness is revealed!

You are looking at this backwards. Hell is not used to describe Hades and Sheol, but Sheol and Hades used to describe hell. Even my unconverted Jewish fellows understand the Hebrew implication in these verses.

But notice that in Revelation 20, HELL is cast into the lake of fire. Hell gives up its dead in Revelation 20:13 so it is clear that hell has always been used as a jail for unbelievers who are then sent to prison (lake of fire) for eternity.

:thumbs:

 

[DrJamesAch]

I do believe in Justice from God and in his Love likewise--his mercy and love will outshine his Justice and judgement though

So you are basically arguing that God is an unbalanced God. God's attributes are perfect. To say that any of His attributes "outweigh" any other is to say that there is some part of God that is less God than other parts. You have erected an erroneous view of the nature of God, not to mention there is absolutely no Scripture to support that statement (which is why you haven't posted one).

 

[HisWitness]

You are looking at this backwards. Hell is not used to describe Hades and Sheol, but Sheol and Hades used to describe hell. Even my unconverted Jewish fellows understand the Hebrew implication in these verses.

But notice that in Revelation 20, HELL is cast into the lake of fire. Hell gives up its dead in Revelation 20:13 so it is clear that hell has always been used as a jail for unbelievers who are then sent to prison (lake of fire) for eternity.

True indeed on Hell being cast into lake of fire--it no longer existed
the HELL there is the place of departed dead people that everyone went unto--UNTIL the resurrection,which all would be resurrected out of it-both lost and saved--and after the resurrection that place exists NO MORE,becuase DEATH has been defeated and that place HELL destroyed.

Now people either go into heaven or the Fire that Corrects them(athough it is torment and pain while they are there).

we disagree on a holding place for each saved and lost grps also--ALL dead went into this HELL--DEATH was passed down from adam to ALL men--this DEATH was body,soul,spirit--all of man not just a part of him--DEAD--UNTIL the rsurrection

 

[DrJamesAch]

.

True indeed on Hell being cast into lake of fire--it no longer existed

This was quoted from Revelation 20 which is yet future. There will become a time when it does not exist, but that has not happened yet, and even when it does happen, the Feds will be transporting the prisoners to their permanent facility: the lake of fire. So as of now, it still exists. When it ceases to exist, that is because its occupents have been moved to the lake of fire.

the HELL there is the place of departed dead people that everyone went unto--UNTIL the resurrection,which all would be resurrected out of it-both lost and saved--and after the resurrection that place exists NO MORE,becuase DAETH has been defeated and that place HELL destroyed.

Not true. Everybody did not rise from their graves. Matthew 27:52 says the SAINTS arose, not those who were dead in sin. And again, as I showed, the transfer from hell to the lake of fire does not occur until future

Now people either go into heaven or the Fire that Corrects them(athough it is torment and pain while they are there).

There is nothing in the Scripture that says hell is for correction. Luke 16 makes it clear there is a great gulf fixed so they those who are in hell can not cross over. Hebrews 9:27 says that after death is judgment. There is no purgatory where sins are purged. You are turning fire into a saviour and only Jesus Christ can purge sins.

 

[HisWitness]

Are you a 7th Day Adventist or a Jehovah's Witness? Or do you just believe their view on Hades and Sheol.

im a Baptist friend

 

[RLBosley]

HW - Let me ask you this since you refuse to grant my request for scripture supposedly supporting your view. You're making a big deal out of 'fire' - What do you make of Jude 7?

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. - Jud 1:7 KJV

Jude clearly says that the inhabitants of the Cities of the Plain (Gen 19:24-29) are "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Every other translation I've looked at agrees:

suffering the vengeance of eternal fire -NKJV
the eternal fire of God’s judgment - NLT
suffer the punishment of eternal fire. - NIV
undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. - ESV
undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. - NASB
punishment [to warn] of everlasting fire - AMP
punishment of eternal fire - CEB
suffer the vengeance of eternal fire - GNV
suffer the punishment of eternal fire - GNT

Even the pathetic crap the Message gets it!
Burning and burning and never burning up -the Message

Do you really think that ALL these scholars and theologians have ALL been wrong?

 

[HisWitness]

This was quoted from Revelation 20 which is yet future. There will become a time when it does not exist, but that has not happened yet, and even when it does happen, the Feds will be transporting the prisoners to their permanent facility: the lake of fire. So as of now, it still exists. When it ceases to exist, that is because its occupents have been moved to the lake of fire.


Not true. Everybody did not rise from their graves. Matthew 27:52 says the SAINTS arose, not those who were dead in sin. And again, as I showed, the transfer from hell to the lake of fire does not occur until future


There is nothing in the Scripture that says hell is for correction. Luke 16 makes it clear there is a great gulf fixed so they those who are in hell can not cross over. Hebrews 9:27 says that after death is judgment. There is no purgatory where sins are purged. You are turning fire into a saviour and only Jesus Christ can purge sins.

this is just your view friend--I have another view(call me a preterist on top of it if you will)

let me ask you a question--do you know 100% of God's truth--youll have to answer-NO-.
well lets just say you know 95%(your a powerhouse of God)well lets say that 5% that you do not know--just maybe some of that 5% you don't know contains some truth you are rejecting ?? is it a possibility --you will have to anser-YES-

 

[RLBosley]

this is just your view friend--I have another view(call me a preterist on top of it if you will)

let me ask you a question--do you know 100% of God's truth--youll have to answer-NO-.
well lets just say you know 95%(your a powerhouse of God)well lets say that 5% that you do not know--just maybe some of that 5% you don't know contains some truth you are rejecting ?? is it a possibility --you will have to anser-YES-

I know this isn't directed at me but I must jump in. This is a fallacy - You are assuming that the 95% that is known DOESN'T include the TRUTH of eternal damnation.

Nobody honestly says they know all there is to know about God. But what we know is what has been clearly revealed in the scripture. Knowledge such as that of eternal damnation.

 

[DrJamesAch]

this is just your view friend--I have another view(call me a preterist on top of it if you will)

let me ask you a question--do you know 100% of God's truth--youll have to answer-NO-.
well lets just say you know 95%(your a powerhouse of God)well lets say that 5% that you do not know--just maybe some of that 5% you don't know contains some truth you are rejecting ?? is it a possibility --you will have to anser-YES-

We can deal with Preterism another time as I have written about that as well.

But 95% to 5%? I'll take those odds anyday. But you on the other hand should be willing to admit that you could be 100% wrong, and so far you have offered nothing Biblical to support your arguments.

 

[Amy.G]

The purpose of the Fire is that of CORRECTION

How can the fire correct someone like Christopher Hitches who upon his deathbed made it perfectly clear that he wanted nothing to do with God?? Do you think while burning in fire he'll fall in love with God? NO! There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth! Gnashing of teeth implies fierce anger towards God!

and NOT that of a always vindictive God who is pleased and gets gratification out of tormenting his creation for eternity.

Where do you come up with God being pleased about tormenting His creation?

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

[HisWitness]

HW - Let me ask you this since you refuse to grant my request for scripture supposedly supporting your view. You're making a big deal out of 'fire' - What do you make of Jude 7?

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. - Jud 1:7 KJV

Jude clearly says that the inhabitants of the Cities of the Plain (Gen 19:24-29) are "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Every other translation I've looked at agrees:

suffering the vengeance of eternal fire -NKJV
the eternal fire of God’s judgment - NLT
suffer the punishment of eternal fire. - NIV
undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. - ESV
undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. - NASB
punishment [to warn] of everlasting fire - AMP
punishment of eternal fire - CEB
suffer the vengeance of eternal fire - GNV
suffer the punishment of eternal fire - GNT

Even the pathetic crap the Message gets it!
Burning and burning and never burning up -the Message

Do you really think that ALL these scholars and theologians have ALL been wrong?

I think you are over looking that the cities are the ones that suffered the so called eternal fire and were burned up.

further more why not look at Ezekiel 16 53-55

verse 55 states:When thy sisters,SODOM and herdaughters,SHALL RETURN to their FORMER ESTATE------

Sodom was gonna return to her former estate in that verse--now was the fire truly eternal---NO--the correct translation should have been Olam(age lasting--short or long duration of time)not Eternal--yet once again the same mis-translation of the word in the old testament its done many time that way in old testament

 

[Amy.G]

im a Baptist friend

No you're not.

 

[HisWitness]

How can the fire correct someone like Christopher Hitches who upon his deathbed made it perfectly clear that he wanted nothing to do with God?? Do you think while burning in fire he'll fall in love with God? NO! There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth! Gnashing of teeth implies fierce anger towards God!



Where do you come up with God being pleased about tormenting His creation?

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

how did God bring you in when you didn't want anything to do with God ??
corrected you through his working within you and brought you to repentance I hope---same in like manner applies.

God has no pleasure in the wicked dieing--that's not eternal punishment that's talking about dieing ??? if God had no pleasure in people dieing--and he didn't--He sent his Son to die and rise from the dead that he could resurrect them that he had no pleasure in their dieing???

If God is not pleased in something--why do you think he will continue to do so for eternity--doesn't make any sense by what I have just stated ???

 

[Amy.G]

how did God bring you in when you didn't want anything to do with God ??

Then why does God need to use fire to bring others in?