Firing Squad at Ft Hood, Tx

[Ascetic X]

Jesus is saying mankind are unable to implement justice without bias, especially the death penalty. Only God can do so.

So government cannot punish evil people?

You need to read Romans 13:1-4.

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Ok, the OT Law was very harsh.

You need to read Psalm 119 and learn how the OT law is holy, just, and good (Romans 7:12).

God showed mercy to Paul, the murderer, as an example for future Christians to follow.

Nowhere does the Bible call Paul a murderer, nor does it say that God’s mercy to Paul means that the state should not execute murderers.

Paul arrested Christians, but never personally killed them, he just approved of it.

 

[Mikey]

I am in favor of biblical justice being done to murderers. I do not need to watch it happen and I feel no happiness about it.

Again, why do you want to view the execution?

Do you also want to start, as you mentioned, placing people in stocks in the city square?

Do you enjoy slasher films and violent video games, since you seem to want to watch the suffering of people?

I am just trying to understand your orientation toward these issues.

Great we are agree on this, we want biblical justice to be done.

Its not about me wanting to or not wanting to view an execution, but rather why is it an absolute wrong to have public punishment/justice? (which appears to be the view of yourself and others)

I don't believe biblical justice and punishment is limited to imprisonment and/or restriction of certain rights. I believe in capital and corporal punishment.

Sure lets take the shoplifters and put them in stock for 24hrs rather than 3 weeks in jail. do you think that is wrong?

If you support justice, why do you insist it must be done out of the sight of the public? To treat justice as something shameful and to be hidden?

To put it this way, i don't have an issue wit seeing animals butchered or slaughtered this what needs to be done to have meat, and i'm not a vegetarian. it isn't shameful to do this and have no moral issues with people doing this or myself to take part. this doesn’t mean i want to see animals slaughtered or take some sort of pleasure from it. Which is what you seem to accuse me of.

so it is not about wanting to see executions, i have no plans in watching any executions, but i can't see why it is morally wrong to have public punishment. if you support it in private why not in public?

 

[Ascetic X]

Great we are agree on this, we want biblical justice to be done.

Its not about me wanting to or not wanting to view an execution, but rather why is it an absolute wrong to have public punishment/justice? (which appears to be the view of yourself and others)….

this doesn’t mean i want to see animals slaughtered or take some sort of pleasure from it. Which is what you seem to accuse me of.

so it is not about wanting to see executions, i have no plans in watching any executions, but i can't see why it is morally wrong to have public punishment. if you support it in private why not in public?

I am not accusing you of anything.

I just asked what value is it to make an execution public?

There are plenty of reasons to not livestream the execution. These reasons have already been presented in this thread.

1. It will not deter copycat jihadists.
2. It would be similar to how jihadists stage public executions.
3. It would appeal to morbid curiosity in some people.
4. It seems barbaric to make it a public spectacle, even though the execution is justified for this crime.
5. It could inspire other jihadists to be martyrs and do a similar crime.
6. It would not be dignified to make it public.
7. It would not accomplish anything.

 

[Mikoo]

And will guarantee they will never have another opportunity to respond to the gospel with saving faith.

That would go also for the 13 people he murdered.

Bottom line, would you rather he be dead and in hell or saved and in heaven?

Unfortunately, we can not ask the 13 people he murdered the same question.

Why not give that wretched man every second of his natural life to come to Christ?

Unfortunately he took that away from the 13 people he murdered.

Just as a reminder.. we all deserve the death penalty for our rebellion against God. We received God’s grace instead

Peace to you

Agree.

 

[JonC]

@SovereignGrace ,

I understand your idea that we need to kill those who have committed murder because this is God's justice as described under the Old Covenant.

I disagree with what is actually being described, but I get the reasoning and know the passages.

BUT why not kill gay people, adulterous men and women, those who ignore priests, and disobedient children? The same law demands their public execution as well.


I am trying to understand how only one element is taken as "biblical judgment" and the rest is ignored.

It seems if people take one crime - here murder - that resulted in public execution but ignore all of the other crimes that resulted in public execution that they are not concerned with God or the Bible but instead are trying to use the Bible to support their view.


Would you be comfortable with the government publically executing adulterous people, gays, and disobedient children? Would that not be the same "biblical justice" you guys are tslking about?

 

[JonC]

That would go also for the 13 people he murdered.

Unfortunately, we can not ask the 13 people he murdered the same question.

Unfortunately he took that away from the 13 people he murdered.

Agree.

I do not understand your argument here.

You rightly say he was wrong to kill 13 people. He deprived them of life, of a future. I can't say he deprived them of an opportunity to be saved as I do not know they were lost.

But you seem to say that he committed an evil act therefore we should commit the same evil act against him. I don't see the moral point you are making.

 

[Mikoo]

I do not understand your argument here.

I wasn't making an argument.

You rightly say he was wrong to kill 13 people. He deprived them of life, of a future. I can't say he deprived them of an opportunity to be saved as I do not know they were lost.

I agree.

But you seem to say that he committed an evil act therefore we should commit the same evil act against him.

I wasn't saying that at all.

I don't see the moral point you are making.

I wasn't making a moral point.
I was just trying to show her that the argument she was making could be said of those he murdered. I did not see her point. I was hoping she would respond so I could engage her.

 

[Ben1445]

It will not deter copycat jihadists.

It could if as part of his judgment he had his afterlife affected by his punishment.
There would be religious lawsuits no doubt. But it would be effective if you remove the reward.
And it should not be out of the question. There is no reason not to fight a religious war cult with religion.

 

[JonC]

I wasn't making an argument.

I agree.

I wasn't saying that at all.

I wasn't making a moral point.
I was just trying to show her that the argument she was making could be said of those he murdered. I did not see her point. I was hoping she would respond so I could engage her.

Ahh...sorry. I must have misunderstood you.

I agree that killing people deprives them of a future, a voice, and if not saved future opportunities to be saved.

I agree that man did this to people.

I agree that others of similar mindsets would do the same to him.

 

[canadyjd]

There really isn't anything to address as nothing Paul stated in 1 Timothy 1…

God showed mercy to Paul as AN EXAMPLE for future Christians to follow.

That must be addressed if one supports the death penalty, otherwise they are defying the commandment of God.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

So government cannot punish evil people?

Yes, the government has the authority to administer the death penalty and Christians are commanded to show mercy.

You need to read Romans 13:1-4.

You need to read 1 Timothy 1.

I can reconcile my beliefs with both passages. You cannot.

Peace to you

 

[SovereignGrace]

God showed mercy to Paul as AN EXAMPLE for future Christians to follow.

That must be addressed if one supports the death penalty, otherwise they are defying the commandment of God.

Peace to you

It was God showing mercy when He was not obligated to. Just like with David. God could have justly condemned him to death but showed mercy. He as the Lawgiver has that right.

 

[SovereignGrace]

@SovereignGrace ,

I understand your idea that we need to kill those who have committed murder because this is God's justice as described under the Old Covenant.

I disagree with what is actually being described, but I get the reasoning and know the passages.

BUT why not kill gay people, adulterous men and women, those who ignore priests, and disobedient children? The same law demands their public execution as well.


I am trying to understand how only one element is taken as "biblical judgment" and the rest is ignored.

It seems if people take one crime - here murder - that resulted in public execution but ignore all of the other crimes that resulted in public execution that they are not concerned with God or the Bible but instead are trying to use the Bible to support their view.


Would you be comfortable with the government publically executing adulterous people, gays, and disobedient children? Would that not be the same "biblical justice" you guys are tslking about?

Oh, I’m a theonomist and believe those should be carried out as well. Morals never changed with the change of administration. God’s character is unchanging and neither is His Law, which is a reflection of His character.

 

[Ascetic X]

Yes, the government has the authority to administer the death penalty and Christians are commanded to show mercy.

You need to read 1 Timothy 1.

I can reconcile my beliefs with both passages. You cannot.

Peace to you

Nothing in 1 Timothy 1 contradicts my belief in the death penalty for murderers.

15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

As I read it, this does not mean Christians should oppose the death penalty for murderers. And Paul arrested Christians who often would later be killed, but Paul himself did not murder anyone.

Instead, we are to be patient with those who reject the faith and to realize how patient God is with us even when we are sinning.

It does not say that we should try to prevent the government from executing murderers.

Ananias and Sapphira were killed by God for lying to the apostles, so God is not opposed to the death penalty.

 

[JonC]

Oh, I’m a theonomist and believe those should be carried out as well. Morals never changed with the change of administration. God’s character is unchanging and neither is His Law, which is a reflection of His character.

I believe God's righteousness is reflective of His character. I am not sure the Old Covenant law, although certainly not unrighteous itself, served that purpose. Instead I believe it was to "make a people".

Making it unlawful to eat pork, for example, was not unjust. But I am not sure that it reflects God's character.


I wonder how many disobedient children you would have executed today would have been saved tomorrow.

 

[Ascetic X]

I believe God's righteousness is reflective of His character. I am not sure the Old Covenant law, although certainly not unrighteous itself, served that purpose. Instead I believe it was to "make a people".

Making it unlawful to eat pork, for example, was not unjust. But I am not sure that it reflects God's character.


I wonder how many disobedient children you would have executed today would have been saved tomorrow.

The OT law was perfect. Psalm 119 exalts it. It was a schoolmaster that brought people to Christ. It kept people moral and righteous within the culture of that time and place. Many aspects of the law are still relevant today.

But the coming of Christ ushered in a deeper, more spiritual set of rules.

Pork is known to be a less healthy meat, so it was in God’s character to forbid it.

Romans 7:12

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.