For those of us who are not Calvinist, but who believe God truly has loved the WHOLE world and is not willing that ONE should perish, the Great Commission will hold until He comes again. However it is not about 'creating' believers, but about taking new believers and making them disciples, teaching them, walking alongside, praying with and encouraging them until they are more mature and ready to turn around and offer a hand to a new Christian.
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Five Biblical Reasons why?
- Thread starter SAMPLEWOW
- Start date
So, my brother, how do we justify these practices (communion, foot washing and water baptism) in the Churches today since they were given only to the apostles and disciples who knew Him in the flesh?
HankD </font>[/QUOTE]Well, Brother HankD, I believe the original topic was winning others to Christ, not whether we ought to observe church ordinances.
Well, to your first point, let me say I am not a Calvinist.
I do not believe that infants ought to be baptized, as some Calvinists do.
I do not believe that one can choose the method of baptism one wants, whether immersion, sprinkling, or pouring, as some Calvinists do.
I do not believe that God chose some to salvation, and some to damnation, as some Calvinists (and Primitive Baptists, too, to be frank), believe.
I do not believe that the gospel has anything to do with one's eternal salvation. It does have to do with one's timely salvation, depending on one's gospel obedience to gospel instruction.
As for your second point, Helen, about discipling existing believers, not making new ones, I agree.
Erratum and correction to my post to Helen:
As for your second point, Helen, about discipling existing believers, not making new ones, I agree.
..."not making" should read "not creating"....
apologies.
As for your second point, Helen, about discipling existing believers, not making new ones, I agree.
..."not making" should read "not creating"....
apologies.
T
TexasSky
Guest
Pinoy,
You seem to be playing mind games with Hank.
First you tell him that the great commission only matters because the words were spoken to the 12.
When Hank points out that the Lord's Supper was also originally only addressing the 12 you imply there is no connection to your question.
The connection should be obvious. Either the scriptures spoken to the 12 should be read as scriptures to the believers and followers or they should not.
You seem to be playing mind games with Hank.
First you tell him that the great commission only matters because the words were spoken to the 12.
When Hank points out that the Lord's Supper was also originally only addressing the 12 you imply there is no connection to your question.
The connection should be obvious. Either the scriptures spoken to the 12 should be read as scriptures to the believers and followers or they should not.
Erratum and correction to my post to Helen:
As for your second point, Helen, about discipling existing believers, not making new ones, I agree.
..."not making" should read "not creating"....
apologies.
As for your second point, Helen, about discipling existing believers, not making new ones, I agree.
..."not making" should read "not creating"....
apologies.
point taken. but the Bible says:
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
So the issue is, who wins who to whom ?
The preacher ? I don't think so.
The evangelist ? Neither.
Christ won souls. He was the One who went up on that cross. He knew who His people were, past, present, and future.
He knows even the very minute of their births, the very details of their lives, their locations and situations every minute of their existence, every one of them, in this plane we call time.
He is the true soul winner, not us.
If we meet anyone whom we are able to disciple, who has a thirst for God's word, and a hunger to know the Christ of God, it is because like Lydia, God had already opened that heart, and that name is in the Lamb's book of life, having been written there before the foundation of the world.
James_Newman
New Member
The bible also says:
Romans 10:13-15
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
If no one preaches to them, they cannot believe, because they have not heard. Apparently, you only believe half the bible.
Romans 10:13-15
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
If no one preaches to them, they cannot believe, because they have not heard. Apparently, you only believe half the bible.
I would rather read the context, James. Who is the apostle talking about ? What is being talked about ? Was he talking about humankind ? Was he talking about 'the great commission' in the sense that the 'great commission' is understood today ?
James_Newman
New Member
You're reading the context but ignoring the command. He said teach others to observe everything I commanded you. If the disciples were commanded to go and preach the gospel, they were also commanded to teach others to go and preach the gospel. Despite whatever you might think you know about predestination and free grace (or lack of), you would not be a Christian if someone had not preached the gospel to you. If you think that you are a Christian but you never heard the Gospel, I would have to ask you how you came to that conclusion.
James, I have no quarrel with that. My point is and has always been that the command was not given to the church. The church is not under any obligation to send out missionaries whose mission is to 'save souls'. Christ has already done all the saving that needs to be done.
The command to go, preach, teach, and baptize was to the apostles, not the church, and through them to those whom the Lord calls into the ministry, and gives gifts of teaching, preaching, and edification.
Also, notice that the command is to go. Not to 'send out', or to find supporters, but, go !
If one feels that the Lord has called him into the ministry, and the church recognizes that gift by the laying on of hands by the presbytery, then one must go, not wait around till he knows most doctrines, or have gathered pledges of financial or material support here and there, but, he should GO GO GO !
The mission order is go and TEACH, not go and SAVE !
WRONG ! Absolutely dead wrong ! I am a Christian because I belong to Christ, as you do. You may not believe that Christ was the one who chose you to be His, and you may believe that you are Christ's because you chose Him, but, a Christian is not a Christian because he belongs to this or that denomination.
Christ bought me with His blood, He had mercy on me in eternity past even when He knew I would be born in enmity with Him in time, and so on that cross He shed His blood for me as well as those whom the Father gave Him from the foundation of the world.
That is why I am a Christian.
Now, had no one preached to me that I ought to be patient, to steal no more, to work with my own hands, to live peaceably with those around me, to speak with grace seasoning my speech always, to depend on God for everything I need, not to be envious of those who seem not to belong to Him, yet live prosperously, if no one had taught me that the sabbath day is to be for God and God only, if no one had taught me Christian values and attitudes written in the Bible, if no one had taught me anything at all about the Bible, then I would not be BEHAVING in a Christian way, but my conduct does not make me a Christian.
I wouldn't come to that conclusion at all. I would never known that I belonged to Christ, that He loved me from before the foundation of the world, that inspite of what I am, and of His knowledge of who I am and what is in me, He STILL went up that cross in obedience to His Father and in compliance of their covenant with each other, had God not worked it out that I should hear the gospel.
But my hearing the gospel does not seal my salvation. It confirms, yes, but the gospel is not the why one is saved.
Christ is SAVIOR, whether or not I believe that.
He is LORD, whether or not men accept that, and submit to His Lordship.
There is no other name given under heaven whereby men must be saved, and my belief of that fact does not cause that fact to be. It is.
His elect is His elect, whether they hear the gospel, or not, whether they obey the gospel or not, whether they know His name or not, whether they're Baptists, Catholics, Adventists, JW's, Primitive Baptists, Southern Baptists, or whatever kind of Baptist, whether they were born during Adam's time, Noah's time, Moses' time, Jesus' time, Paul's time, or any time.
His elect are His elect.
He died for them, regardless of their theology, their geography, their skin color, their mental state, or whatever.
They shall know Him, with or without the gospel, with or without preachers.
They shall all be brought to regeneration, to conversion, and to obedience.
T
TexasSky
Guest
Pinoy,
Did you ever personally surrender your life to Christ?
Did you ever personally surrender your life to Christ?
What has that got to do with the discussion ?
The original post was:
KJV Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
bro PB objected that this was given to the original 11 implying that it can not be used as a supporting Scripture today, I then replied: then why do we baptise today (among other things) seeing this was given only to the original 11?
In fact when questioned about this not being applicable to the Church today he said...
also...
Why then do we baptise today (amongst other things given to the original disciples and apostles) if baptising in the name of the Trinity is part of the Great Commission given only to the original 11 (as you assert)?
HankD
When someone used the supporting Scripture of
KJV Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
bro PB objected that this was given to the original 11 implying that it can not be used as a supporting Scripture today, I then replied: then why do we baptise today (among other things) seeing this was given only to the original 11?
In fact when questioned about this not being applicable to the Church today he said...
So. I ask are the original disciples and apostles here on earth baptising folk?
also...
Yes but it involved an inquiry concerning supporting Scripture which inquiry resulted in Matthew 28 passage to which bro Pinoy you gave an "on topic" rebutal quoted above, now I am following that rebutal with another "on topic" rebutal of my own.
Why then do we baptise today (amongst other things given to the original disciples and apostles) if baptising in the name of the Trinity is part of the Great Commission given only to the original 11 (as you assert)?
HankD
T
TexasSky
Guest
It has everything to do with the discussion.
James_Newman
New Member
James, I have no quarrel with that. My point is and has always been that the command was not given to the church. The church is not under any obligation to send out missionaries whose mission is to 'save souls'. Christ has already done all the saving that needs to be done.
The command to go, preach, teach, and baptize was to the apostles, not the church, and through them to those whom the Lord calls into the ministry, and gives gifts of teaching, preaching, and edification.
Also, notice that the command is to go. Not to 'send out', or to find supporters, but, go !
If one feels that the Lord has called him into the ministry, and the church recognizes that gift by the laying on of hands by the presbytery, then one must go, not wait around till he knows most doctrines, or have gathered pledges of financial or material support here and there, but, he should GO GO GO !
The mission order is go and TEACH, not go and SAVE !
WRONG ! Absolutely dead wrong ! I am a Christian because I belong to Christ, as you do. You may not believe that Christ was the one who chose you to be His, and you may believe that you are Christ's because you chose Him, but, a Christian is not a Christian because he belongs to this or that denomination.
Christ bought me with His blood, He had mercy on me in eternity past even when He knew I would be born in enmity with Him in time, and so on that cross He shed His blood for me as well as those whom the Father gave Him from the foundation of the world.
That is why I am a Christian.
Now, had no one preached to me that I ought to be patient, to steal no more, to work with my own hands, to live peaceably with those around me, to speak with grace seasoning my speech always, to depend on God for everything I need, not to be envious of those who seem not to belong to Him, yet live prosperously, if no one had taught me that the sabbath day is to be for God and God only, if no one had taught me Christian values and attitudes written in the Bible, if no one had taught me anything at all about the Bible, then I would not be BEHAVING in a Christian way, but my conduct does not make me a Christian.
I wouldn't come to that conclusion at all. I would never known that I belonged to Christ, that He loved me from before the foundation of the world, that inspite of what I am, and of His knowledge of who I am and what is in me, He STILL went up that cross in obedience to His Father and in compliance of their covenant with each other, had God not worked it out that I should hear the gospel.
But my hearing the gospel does not seal my salvation. It confirms, yes, but the gospel is not the why one is saved.
Christ is SAVIOR, whether or not I believe that.
He is LORD, whether or not men accept that, and submit to His Lordship.
There is no other name given under heaven whereby men must be saved, and my belief of that fact does not cause that fact to be. It is.
His elect is His elect, whether they hear the gospel, or not, whether they obey the gospel or not, whether they know His name or not, whether they're Baptists, Catholics, Adventists, JW's, Primitive Baptists, Southern Baptists, or whatever kind of Baptist, whether they were born during Adam's time, Noah's time, Moses' time, Jesus' time, Paul's time, or any time.
His elect are His elect.
He died for them, regardless of their theology, their geography, their skin color, their mental state, or whatever.
They shall know Him, with or without the gospel, with or without preachers.
They shall all be brought to regeneration, to conversion, and to obedience. </font>[/QUOTE]Acts 10:43
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Acts 16:30-31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
John 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
People have taken the doctrine of election and run with it to such an extreme that they believe it somehow nullifies the rest of the bible. One thing you need to remember is that all the scripture is inspired. I realize that you are doubting the inspiration of the new testament, I saw your other posts on other threads. But the NT is inspired scripture, and not just the Calvin verses that teach God's sovereignty, but also the free-will verses that teach a man's responsibility to believe the Gospel when he hears it. You must be able to believe them both or you have something out of balance. The scriptures do not contradict themselves. You have put something out of its place and made more of it than God intended you to make of it.
I know a pastor in the Phillipines that you should talk to.
The problem with your interpretation of this Scripture is that you forget that the Bible also states that man is dead in sins and trespasses and that the natural man has no interest in the things of the Spirit, and so for the natural man to have any interest at all in the things of the Lord, the Lord must open that man's heart and turn him to the Savior.
At that point, he believes, because the Lord had quickened him, and so the statement that he receives remission of sins comes true for him.
One truth must precede and proceed from another. Either man is naturally at variance with his maker, or not. Which is it for you, James ?
Now, if believing (faith) on the Savior precedes regeneration, and the Bible is the Word of God, is the promise that salvation will also come to 'thy house' a true experience of all who profess salvation ?
Maybe all your household profess salvation, but, is that true of every Christian you personally know, James ?
Or could this principle in Acts 16:30-31 be akin, simply, to the statement made by Paul that the unbelieving husband or wife is sanctified thru the believing spouse, and so with the children ?
Again, one cannot believe unless one is brought back to life. Faith comes after regeneration, not before. Regeneration is not the result of faith. It is the work of the Holy Spirit, a drawing of the elect child of God to Christ by the Father. And those who thus believe as a result of their regeneration, have from the beginning not been condemned, because they were chosen unto salvation in Christ.
Those who do not believe do not believe because it is not given to them. I think such a principle that God chooses is clearly illustrated in this incident in Matthew 13:10-12
And truly, I do not hold, nor preach, that the elect are born saved here in time. In the eternal purpose and mind of God, none of His elect will ever be lost, for they are all in Christ.
All are concluded, declared, proven, to be under sin, and all are brought to salvation thru the blood of Christ, shed both in time, and in eternity past as the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world.
As for those who believe ?
As I've said, then and now, they believe because the message is to them, not the world.
On the contrary, I believe that the Doctrine of Grace, properly understood, confirms, not nullifies, the rest of the Bible.
I asked if the New Testament, in its entirety, is God-breathed, in the sense that Isaiah declares, thus saith the Lord ? Am I going to hell because I doubt, if I do, the inspiration of the New Testament, specifically the Pauline and General Epistles ? Does that mean I am unregenerate because I do not accept the established notion ?
I know that Paul and Peter rightly divided the Old Testament. I know that they drew their doctrines and their teachings from the Old Testament, but considering the dates they were written, on what Scripture do we base our teaching that 'All Scripture' means to include even the writings of Paul, Peter, etc. ?
I except the Book of Revelation and, maybe, the Gospels.
I do not say that man has no responsibility to believe the Gospel when he hears it, but, which men ? ALL men ? I don't think so.
The unregenerate, the unelect, have no responsibility to obey what they do not believe, what God has not caused them to believe.
God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure applies to his children in Christ Jesus not the unregenerate.
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself, applies to those who are His own in the Ephesian church, not to those who are not His.
His people have the responsibility for gospel obedience, yes, but the heathen will give account of themselves to Him in due time.
That's your opinion, you're entitled to it.
Only problem is, I'm in the States.
Co 15:1
¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Co 15:5
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8
And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1Co 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
1Co 15:11
Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
AND
2Ti 2:2
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
AND
Ro 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Ro 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro 10:11
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Ro 10:12
¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Ro 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Ro 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
These are ALL from Paul's epistle's. They were not to just one little band of eleven men. They were written to "the churches and pastor's" of the first century and by extension, to ALL of us.
If you can't see that it is a BIBLICAL command given by God that we should go and win the lost, then you are blind and "knowest it not".
¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Co 15:5
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8
And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1Co 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
1Co 15:11
Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
AND
2Ti 2:2
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
AND
Ro 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Ro 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro 10:11
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Ro 10:12
¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Ro 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Ro 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
These are ALL from Paul's epistle's. They were not to just one little band of eleven men. They were written to "the churches and pastor's" of the first century and by extension, to ALL of us.
If you can't see that it is a BIBLICAL command given by God that we should go and win the lost, then you are blind and "knowest it not".