Flags in the church

[J.D.]

The Feast of the Dedication of Jerusalem, not mentioned in the Old Testament, was part of first century Jewish worship, and was something observed by Jesus (John 10:22). The Regulative Principles of Worship might well have defined this observance as being “according to the imaginations and devices of men.” Yet Jesus had no problem with it.

For the Puritans, and also for the Baptists who authored the 1689 London Baptist Confession, it was a statement that they would not be bound by extrabiblical observances imposed by the state church. Today if a church member doesn’t approve of a particular activity, he or she is free to not participate. Or to find another church.

“There is a great difference between instituting some exercise of piety, which believers may use with a free conscience, or may abstain from if they think the observance not to be useful, and enacting a law which brings the conscience into bondage.” - John Calvin

Regarding national flags, or for example a special program honoring veterans, I refer to Romans 13:7 - “Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.”

It is right and acceptable, even expected, that we should pray and honor God in celebrations of the State. But should we honor and praise the State during the worship of God? Is the Lord's Day worship of God Almighty the right time to render tribute and honor to God, or to man? Is the context of Romans 13 in the corporate worship of the Church?

 

[NiteShift]

Yes, the Feast of the Dedication/Lights were not required observances. In fact, they were more nationalistic in nature.

Yes, it was nationalistic, and it was not a commandment of God. It was practiced in the synagogue, and Jesus did not have a problem with it.

You appeal to the idea that people can leave a church. This begs the question as II Timothy 4 states that there will be prophets who rise up to tickle people's ears and Jesus himself would sometimes get large crowds but then they would leave him (John 6).

Well, judging by the reaction we always see whenever anyone brings up the subject of flags or nationalism in church a great many ears are tickled when someone tells them they are right to oppose such things!

As for your quote of Peter, there is no honor due to America or the flag in a worship service of God. God never commanded it, therefore there is none due.

But God does expect gratitude for the blessings He has bestowed, and many of us see the issue as thanks for where He has put us and for the many good things He has given us. And a willingness to try and preserve them.

but that is not the London Baptist Confession is saying in Chapter 22 paragraph 1:…. This was more than a statement against the state church, but a statement on how all of worship should be done. The focus was that God should not be worshipped by institutions of man. Westminster's statement is the same. The statement itself is simple, that nothing except what is prescribed should be observed.

The London Baptist Confession was, after all, simply opinions of some admittedly learned men in 1689. It is not Scripture. There were, and are, just as many learned men who took the normative view: that God does not have a greatly different set of rules for behavior inside church as opposed to outside of the church building.

 

[Ruiz]

Yes, it was nationalistic, and it was not a commandment of God. It was practiced in the synagogue, and Jesus did not have a problem with it.

I made two arguments. First it was nationalistic and secondly that it was the circumstances. Thus, this situation does not apply to the Regulative Principles as they still upheld the proper elements of worship but used a circumstance to Worship, which I do not have a problem with circumstances but I would have a problem with changing the elements.

Well, judging by the reaction we always see whenever anyone brings up the subject of flags or nationalism in church a great many ears are tickled when someone tells them they are right to oppose such things!

How do we know what is right and wrong in worship? I contend the tickling of ears is in more check when we obey the regulative principles, the principles that God setup for worship. Remember, adding traditions of man is condemned by Jesus Christ. I prefer not to add it to our worship.

But God does expect gratitude for the blessings He has bestowed, and many of us see the issue as thanks for where He has put us and for the many good things He has given us. And a willingness to try and preserve them.

I believe in thanking God for the many good things He has given to us. I do not see pledging allegiance to a flag or invoking nationalism is appropriate. The people who gather are not greeks, jews, male, or female, but they are the "church" gathering. As a Church we gather, not as Americans.

The London Baptist Confession was, after all, simply opinions of some admittedly learned men in 1689. It is not Scripture. There were, and are, just as many learned men who took the normative view: that God does not have a greatly different set of rules for behavior inside church as opposed to outside of the church building.

The London Baptist Confession is a statement of man, just like everything written on this topic on both sides. That is why I quoted and cited Scripture and referenced ideas like Nadab and Abihu when God condemned their offering something He did not command, talked about Jesus' condemnation of the traditions of man, and the like.

I do not believe I am as smart as God and that I should come under subjection to God's Word. We should not add to it.

 

[Ruiz]

I hope that was a typo, Ruiz, and that you didn't really mean that a pastor's job is not to do things in accordance to God's commands. Surely pastors, and all Christians, should do things in accordance with God's commands.

It was obviously a typo.

 

[Ruiz]

Been home yet?

Yes, but while I was willing he was not willing to provide sources that he would show that I am wrong. Rather, he jettisoned the conversation.