Flags in the church

[SBCPreacher]

The best I can remember, I've never been in a church that didn't have flags in them.

 

[J.D.]

I bet, most of you who have a flag in the Sanctuary along with the Christian Flag, display it in the Superior place over the Christian flag. If so, I would first challenge you to switch the places for a couple of months and see how much trouble you get into.

For me, the worship service is no place for the American Flag, patriotic celebrations, or the like. This is a place where the people come together worship. The flag plays no part of our worship nor is it of any practical means have a place in our worship.

I switched the flags one time to place the Christian Flag in the place of higher honor (to the speaker's right) before a service, and during the announcements a lady got up and switched them back and gave me a scolding right in front of the church. It was then that I realized what an idol the flag had become.

 

[Ruiz]

I switched the flags one time to place the Christian Flag in the place of higher honor (to the speaker's right) before a service, and during the announcements a lady got up and switched them back and gave me a scolding right in front of the church. It was then that I realized what an idol the flag had become.

I agree. Almost anything can become an idol which is why many churches in history elected for a very simple sanctuary. They felt our natural nature is to uplift things in a worship service. In history and today, people have even uplifted pews, pulpits, and communion tables higher than they should so the argument from the other side does not carry weight with me. If people get rid of it they will probably get grief, but if not then they will ensure to keep some from becoming a stumbling block.

I heard of a church that almost split because they disagreed over whether the roof should be black shingles or brown. If we are that lame to worship a roof, we are certainly that lame to worship a flag.

 

[Jim1999]

So, you would remove the flag from the coffin at a funeral?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[mandym]

Saying I am bearing false witness is not really appropriate unless you can provide evidence to the contrary.

Now you are bearing false witness since I never said that. But you seem to go for phrases that invoke the most emotion whether the subject is about flags in church or illegal immigration.

 

[Ruiz]

Now you are bearing false witness since I never said that. But you seem to go for phrases that invoke the most emotion whether the subject is about flags in church or illegal immigration.

You said, "Could not be farther from the truth." In other words, it was a lie. In other words, I was bearing false witness. Thus, I still await your evidence.

 

[mandym]

You said, "Could not be farther from the truth." In other words, it was a lie. In other words, I was bearing false witness. Thus, I still await your evidence.

You know, there is just no reasonable thing to say to this. God Bless

 

[Ruiz]

So, you would remove the flag from the coffin at a funeral?

Cheers,

Jim

No I would not remove the flag, but a funeral is not a corporate worship service of the local church. Just like I would not have a funeral for a corporate worship service because a corporate worship service is about worshipping God alone. As well, I am sometimes asked to speak at various functions where there is a flag and a pledge. I still speak because I do not expect the same thing outside of the church service as I expect inside.

Yet, for the corporate worship service I do not think a flag is appropriate.

 

[Ruiz]

You know, there is just no reasonable thing to say to this. God Bless

The don't tell me I am making a statement that "couldn't be further from the truth" if you are going to ignore calls for proof. If you were not calling what I said a lie, what were you calling it? Were you saying it was true?

I still await your evidence to show I was wrong.

 

[Salty]

I still await your evidence to show I was wrong.

Does the Bible actually give us a direction on this or is it a matter of opinion/preference?

 

[Jim1999]

For those who would not have a flag in the church service:

Have you ever been to war?

Do you allow earthly or worldly events in the church such as bands, picture screens, movies, songs on screens?

Would you permit veterans to attend a Church service as a group on special Sundays?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Ruiz]

Does the Bible actually give us a direction on this or is it a matter of opinion/preference?

Salty,

There are two views on the nature of worship: The Regulative Principles and the Normative Principles.

The normative principles are traditionally held by Catholics, Episcopals, and Lutherans held that unless something is forbidden for worship, it should be allowed.

I hold to the regulative principles. This is held by Presbyterians, early Baptists, and Congregationalists. We hold that God has designed worship and we should not be adding to the worship service. Thus, we believe God has perfectly prescribed worship and we will only take away from God's perfect plan of worship by adding to what God has commanded.

Pastor Jim Dom wrote this excellent summary of the regulative principle argument:

Those who hold the traditional view of the Regulative Principle are generally agreed in the way they demonstrate it from Scripture. Key passages usually include the Second Commandment in Exodus 20:4-6 and Deuteronomy 5:8-10; the offering of strange fire in Leviticus 10:1-3; the warning against false worship in Deuteronomy 12:32; the death of Uzza in 2 Samuel 6:1-11 and 1 Chronicles 13:5-14; the prohibition of adding to the Word of God in Proverbs 30:5, 6; the warning against false worship in Jeremiah 7:31; Jesus’ conflict with the Pharisees over the commandments of God and the traditions of men in Matthew 15:1-9 and Mark 7:1-13; Jesus’ teaching about worship in spirit and truth in John 4:22-24; the warning against will worship in Colossians 2:23; and the prohibition of adding to or subtracting from the Word of God in Revelation 22:18, 19. From these and other passages it is argued that the Bible explicitly condemns all worship that is not commanded by God.21

In addition to Scriptural exposition, theological arguments are employed. From the authority and sufficiency of Scripture, the sovereignty of God, the total depravity of man, and other biblical themes, it is argued that it is God’s exclusive prerogative to determine the terms on which sinners may approach Him in worship; that the introduction of extra-biblical practices into worship inevitably tends to nullify and undermine God’s appointed worship; and that the addition of any unappointed elements into worship effectively calls into question the wisdom of Christ and the sufficiency of Scripture.22

I do not see from a practical reason why we would want to add to the Bible's teaching on worship because God is all wise and we are not. However, I do hold to the regulative principles.

 

[go2church]

Jim,

No, not allowed though tried to enlist twice rejected both times as I could not pass the hearing test.

I don't see how a screen is the same as a flag. No one pledges allegiance to a screen (as far as I know). Nor does a screen represent a country (again as far as I know)

All veterans are always welcome though not sure what you mean by special Sundays. You mean like Veteran's Day?

 

[Ruiz]

For those who would not have a flag in the church service:

Have you ever been to war?

Do you allow earthly or worldly events in the church such as bands, picture screens, movies, songs on screens?

Would you permit veterans to attend a Church service as a group on special Sundays?

Cheers,

Jim

I have never been to war, but I have served in the military and I work with Veterans.

We do allow groups to attend our worship service and have in the past. Anyone can come to our worship service. Yet, the purpose of the worship service is not them, it is God. Thus, while they may attend we do not pledge allegiance to them.

We do allow songs on screens and even hymn books, a table, communion cups, and we have lights and even a projector. We do not pledge our allegiance to these things. These are all wise parts of the worship to assist in our worship of God. They are all tools to assist in congregational singing, serving communion, and the like.

The flag is not a practical element that assists in a prescribed elements of worship. Rather, it is an extra element.

 

[Salty]

Salty,
I hold to the regulative principles. This is held by Presbyterians, early Baptists, and Congregationalists. We hold that God has designed worship and we should not be adding to the worship service. Thus, we believe God has perfectly prescribed worship and we will only take away from God's perfect plan of worship by adding to what God has commanded.

So no Sunday School, no piano, no hymbooks, ect, ect, ect

 

[Ruiz]

So no Sunday School, no piano, no hymbooks, ect, ect, ect

Salty,

No, most of what you listed are instruments of the worship, not elements of worship (which is what I was describing). A flag is neither an instrument of worship nor an element of worship and therefore is an unneeded extra of worship. There is a difference between instruments (logical and often necessary tools to assist in the elements), elements, and unnecessary things withing a church.

Secondly, Sunday School is not corporate worship as is a fellowship meal after church. Thus, there is nothing wrong with it.

Yet, the issue is what is taught in Scripture. Of which, I think it is rather clear in Scripture that God should prescribe the elements of worship and the instruments of worship only assist in the elements.

What Scripture evidence do you have that we can add to the prescribed elements of worship?

 

[Jim1999]

God did not prescribe ungodly drum banging and guitars strumming, worldy movie screens showing pictures which may detract from worship.

I think too much is being made of the flag. Why not take out the drapes, cushions on pews and other worldly things that may take my attention.....Oh, and don't forget to censor the ladies entering in questionable garb.

Better to censor a flag which represents your country. That flag was a symbol of peace on the battlefield. It reminded us why we were carrying arms and risking our lives, so that you could ban us from worship in the homeland because we dare to expose that flag. I get the point......I wonder if the 550 Canadians who died in Korea would get the point. I guess my grandfather was right about the initials of the veterans group...DVA....Don't volunteer again!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[revmwc]

Salty,

No, most of what you listed are instruments of the worship, not elements of worship (which is what I was describing). A flag is neither an instrument of worship nor an element of worship and therefore is an unneeded extra of worship. There is a difference between instruments (logical and often necessary tools to assist in the elements), elements, and unnecessary things withing a church.

Secondly, Sunday School is not corporate worship as is a fellowship meal after church. Thus, there is nothing wrong with it.

Yet, the issue is what is taught in Scripture. Of which, I think it is rather clear in Scripture that God should prescribe the elements of worship and the instruments of worship only assist in the elements.

What Scripture evidence do you have that we can add to the prescribed elements of worship?

Greet each other with a holy kiss every service and in public, Romans 16:16Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you,
1 Corinthians 16:20 All the brethren greet you. Greet ye one another with an holy kiss. 2 Corinthians 13: 11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. 12 Greet one another with an holy kiss. 1 Thessalonians 5:25 Brethren, pray for us. 26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.

27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
Hopefully you read the episitle of 1 Thessalonians to all the Holy brethren when you are gathered.

 

[Ruiz]

God did not prescribe ungodly drum banging and guitars strumming, worldy movie screens showing pictures which may detract from worship.

I think too much is being made of the flag. Why not take out the drapes, cushions on pews and other worldly things that may take my attention.....Oh, and don't forget to censor the ladies entering in questionable garb.

Better to censor a flag which represents your country. That flag was a symbol of peace on the battlefield. It reminded us why we were carrying arms and risking our lives, so that you could ban us from worship in the homeland because we dare to expose that flag. I get the point......I wonder if the 550 Canadians who died in Korea would get the point. I guess my grandfather was right about the initials of the veterans group...DVA....Don't volunteer again!

Cheers,

Jim

Jim,

Again, I note the difference between elements of worship and instruments of worship. I think it is clear that drums are appropriate for worship as prescribed in the Psalms.

The flag is neither an element or instrument of worship. It is an extra. As for a symbol of peace, the cross of Jesus Christ is the greatest symbol of peace far better than any flag.

 

[Ruiz]

Greet each other with a holy kiss every service and in public, Romans 16:16Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you,
1 Corinthians 16:20 All the brethren greet you. Greet ye one another with an holy kiss. 2 Corinthians 13: 11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. 12 Greet one another with an holy kiss. 1 Thessalonians 5:25 Brethren, pray for us. 26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.

27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
Hopefully you read the episitle of 1 Thessalonians to all the Holy brethren when you are gathered.

Rev,

What is your point? Are you advocating the normative principles or the regulatory principles of worship? I fail to see what is the principle you are trying to advance.

Do you believe we can add to what God has prescribed in worship? I don't and that is the issue. I think God was infinitely wise and I am not, thus I think we are perfectly sufficient to having worship with only what he prescribed.