Flags in the church

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Much ado about nothing.

Cheers,

Jim

I agree. I prefer not having a flag in church, but we meet in a school classroom and we do not remove the little Irish flag there every week. We do, however, remove and replace some of the holiday decorations the teacher uses. At Hallowe'en there is normally a skeleton hanging right where we put the pulpit and I don't like the competition!

 

[righteousdude2]

CBT: Are You A Veteran?

I only ask this because if you are, will you "refuse" to have the American flag draped over your coffin?

You pose an interesting question and make a great point. I'm sure this is an emotional subject to many, but, as a veteran, and a believer, as a pastor, I prefer to have the falg of this nation on the stage, so long as the Christian flag is also hanging on the other side of the stage.

Call me old fashion, but, I've never had a problem with this. :thumbs:

In His Name,

Pastor Paul

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Call me old fashion, but, I've never had a problem with this. :thumbs:

In His Name,

Pastor Paul

Was this a tradition in the church worldwide through the ages?

 

[David Lamb]

Was this a tradition in the church worldwide through the ages?

Can't have been! The so-called "Christian flag" is not a "through the ages" thing; it was "conceived on a Sunday, September 26, 1897 at Brighton Chapel, Coney Island, New York." I hadn't even heard of it before becoming a member of the BB.

 

[dcorbett]

We have the Christian flag on one side of the room and the American flag on the other...and during missions conference, we have flags from every country where we support a missionary also.

I like it! I am a Christian and a patriot too.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I only ask this because if you are, will you "refuse" to have the American flag draped over your coffin?

Yes, I am a veteran. I was in the 97th Signal and we were on high alert when the Berlin Wall went up.

I would not refuse to have an American flag draped over my coffin ... if I were to have one ... but I won't. In my advanced directive I have donated my body to a university medical school. But back to the flag ... a flag on my coffin would simply say something about my life. Maybe they could put some book on the coffin also to show that I liked to read and that I was a librarian. I'd probably like that more than flowers ... though I do love flowers.

You pose an interesting question and make a great point. I'm sure this is an emotional subject to many, but, as a veteran, and a believer, as a pastor, I prefer to have the flag of this nation on the stage, so long as the Christian flag is also hanging on the other side of the stage.

Call me old fashion, but, I've never had a problem with this. :thumbs:

I had not thought much about this topic until several years ago when I read an article on the worst day in Christian history. That day, and after thinking about it I agree, was the day that Constantine made Christianity the official state church. This mixed politics into Christianity and and guaranteed that centuries later Mohammad and Moslems would view Christianity as an enemy. Why? Because armies from Christian countries would be viewed as arms of a hostile government.

What I am objecting to is displaying a symbol of Caesar in a religious setting. It has nothing to do with patriotism but with the image it gives to others of Christ and the government being close partners and, thus, for many who follow other religions as the enemy.

Having arrived at the position that I now hold I see having a Christian flag on one side and the national flag on the other as confusing culture with Christianity. I am now saying this to attack anyone but am saying this gently. I am simply stating how I see it at this point in time.

I may start another thread on the 'worst day in Christian history'.

David is correct, the Christian flag is really of recent origin speaking in a historical sense.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Your knowledge of history is somewhat lacking. "God With Us" (Latin: Nobiscum deus) was the battle cry of the Roman Empire post 325AD and of the Byzantine Empire (but in Greek, of course). In the 17th century, the phrase "Gott mit uns" was used by the army of Gustavus Adolphus, king of Sweden, in the Thirty Years' War (the war of Protestantism against Catholicism that divided Europe north and south). It was continued by the German Empire up to, and unfortunately including, the time of Hitler's Chancellery.

I was not trying to give a history of the term ... I was simply using it to give an example of what I consider confusing culture and country with Christianity.

I do thank you for giving the history of the term, "Gott mit uns". It points out well that this confusion has been around a long time and I am sure some have done this in attempting to sway citizen's feeling about a war or impending war.

What makes you think that the support of "any military action" by Christians is due to "blind support?" Isn't it possible that at least some of us are quite well informed regarding international relations and the reasons for military intervention?

I do not believe I said, 'any military action, but all military actions. At least that was in my mind. My words in that post were:

Also the blind support of any military action by the US is, again to me, confusing culture and/or patriotism with Christianity.

I am sure many are well informed on both sides of any issue involving the use of the military.

Has the US used the military in any action during your lifetime that you feel was wrong?

 

[jaigner]

When coming to a church as pastor, I remove the flags from the auditorium. I don't want any confusion about which kingdom we are focused on when we are worshipping together.

This is a very good point. Everything on display in a sanctuary should be examined theologically.

I do, however, understand those who include flags to symbolize missionary presence. I wouldn't leave it on display in general, though.

I don't understand for a minute, though, how anyone could display a Christian flag on one side and an american on the other side. That just poses too obvious an issue.

Pick your kingdom.

 

[sag38]

I'm glad he's not my pastor (He certainly wouldn't get my vote for having such a morally superior understanding). At my church we evidently would not be a good fit for him because we evidently would be too dumb, worldly, and unable to tell the difference between the Kingdom of God and earthly citizenship. Then again, maybe we would need him to help teach us the difference. Not!

Most of us are intelligent enough and mature enough to tell the difference. An American flag on one side and a Christian one on the other does not confuse me nor the vast majority of Christians. I don't think many have this unfortunate problem but evidently there is a minority who really have trouble separating the two.

Personally, I'm proud that God has allowed me to be a citizen of the United States. My church is located in that country that allows religious freedom. When I see the flag I am reminded of just where God has allowed me to live and serve and I am thankful to Him.

 

[Ruiz]

I bet, most of you who have a flag in the Sanctuary along with the Christian Flag, display it in the Superior place over the Christian flag. If so, I would first challenge you to switch the places for a couple of months and see how much trouble you get into.

For me, the worship service is no place for the American Flag, patriotic celebrations, or the like. This is a place where the people come together worship. The flag plays no part of our worship nor is it of any practical means have a place in our worship.

 

[Salty]

If this is off topic - so bit it, but I think it fits right in.

Way back in 1971, I started attending the Zweibruecken Air Force Base Chapel (yes I was Army, but the chaplain there, well thats another story...). The (UM) chaplain would wear his dress uniform to conduct services. However, we also wore a ministerial scarf around his neck. I had never seen this (as any good Baptist :smilewinkgrin, so I asked him about it. He told the reason he wore the scarf was so the congregation would reflect on the message, not his fruit salad (aka medals). I responded in complete sincerity, if folks come to look at you medals, they wont get anything out the message anyways. That was the last time I ever saw Chaplain Rhodes wear the scarf in the pulpit! BTW, chaplain Rhodes was a Bible Believing born again chaplain who preached the gospel without compromise. That was about the only chapel I was in that actually gave an invitation.

 

[mandym]

I'm glad he's not my pastor (He certainly wouldn't get my vote for having such a morally superior understanding). At my church we evidently would not be a good fit for him because we evidently would be too dumb, worldly, and unable to tell the difference between the Kingdom of God and earthly citizenship. Then again, maybe we would need him to help teach us the difference. Not!

Most of us are intelligent enough and mature enough to tell the difference. An American flag on one side and a Christian one on the other does not confuse me nor the vast majority of Christians. I don't think many have this unfortunate problem but evidently there is a minority who really have trouble separating the two.

Personally, I'm proud that God has allowed me to be a citizen of the United States. My church is located in that country that allows religious freedom. When I see the flag I am reminded of just where God has allowed me to live and serve and I am thankful to Him.

Which is as it should be. The accusatory tone by those who do not want flags in their sanctuary is rather odd. My suspicion is that it has to do more with anti-patriotism than it does with whether or not someone is focused on the right Kingdom.

 

[jaigner]

Which is as it should be. The accusatory tone by those who do not want flags in their sanctuary is rather odd. My suspicion is that it has to do more with anti-patriotism than it does with whether or not someone is focused on the right Kingdom.

Unfortunately, those of us who oppose flags in church sanctuaries are all too often dismissed as being anti-patriotic. My guess is that, for practically all of us, it is not true. I am thankful for a land of religious freedom and, because this is where Almighty God has placed me, it is the best place on earth for me to be. I pray for the safety of the troops, both ours and foreign, and civilians who are tragically caught in the crossfire. I am thankful for men and women like my grandfathers, who gave of themselves and their expertise in WWII.

But patriotism is not next to godliness. And flags don't belong next to a cross.

 

[jaigner]

Most of us are intelligent enough and mature enough to tell the difference.

It's not an issue of intelligence. It's rather an issue of being so engulfed (or, as a rather dumb pastor I heard one time said, "engulped") and swallowed by our culture of patriotic arrogance, which is unfortunately so pervasive that it clouds the judgment of the most intelligent of Christians.

 

[Jim1999]

Must be something wrong in the service if two flags that are sitting at the side draws all the attention....I'm sure some people spend the whole servce admiring the drapes on windows, or the preacher's tie!!!!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Bob Alkire]

Must be something wrong in the service if two flags that are sitting at the side draws all the attention....I'm sure some people spend the whole servce admiring the drapes on windows, or the preacher's tie!!!!

Cheers,

Jim

I'm with you on this one my friend. The flag is a non issue with me.

 

[sag38]

No jag, most of us are not caught up "engulfed" in patriotic arrogance. The majority of us know the difference between worship and patriotism. We have no problem separating the two. Honestly, it is very seldom that I pay attention to any flag in our sanctuary. And, even when we do emphasize the US flag it is done in the context of worship. It's called Christian maturity. I am very sorry that you are unable to do the same but maybe one day God will grant you the ability to do so.

 

[righteousdude2]

Caesar Has Nothing to Do with America and its Symbols.

What I am objecting to is displaying a symbol of Caesar in a religious setting.

I fail to see any similarities between anything of Caesar/Rome and America. Maybe, in my Conservative, patriotic heart and mind, your liberal leanings, hankering and rants can shed some additional light of tremendous importance in my direction to clear up any Biblical confusion I may have between the two.

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[sag38]

Only someone like Crabby would link displaying a United States flag with displaying a symbol of Caesar. How arrogant can these anti-flag folks get? In my church we do not worship the United States. We have not burned incense to Caesar, the President, or anyp person declaring them to be god. We have not placed our citizenship in the U.S. over our citizenship in heaven.

 

[mandym]

Unfortunately, those of us who oppose flags in church sanctuaries are all too often dismissed as being anti-patriotic. My guess is that, for practically all of us, it is not true. I am thankful for a land of religious freedom and, because this is where Almighty God has placed me, it is the best place on earth for me to be. I pray for the safety of the troops, both ours and foreign, and civilians who are tragically caught in the crossfire. I am thankful for men and women like my grandfathers, who gave of themselves and their expertise in WWII.

But patriotism is not next to godliness. And flags don't belong next to a cross.

Then lets agree not to associate those who are against flags to anti-patriotism and those who are with being confused about which kingdom to serve.