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Flaws of Calvinism

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J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
Unconditional election is unBiblical election. That the election is unmerited is what must be understood. No one can deserve God's gift of salvation by any means.
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God choosing to save some is unconditional, based upon Him alone
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Servant of Lord Jesus said:
God choosing to save some is unconditional, based upon Him alone
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Not Biblical. God elects according to His forknowing His elect. That is a condition. 1 Peter 1:2, ". . . Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: . . ." And no one merits this.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
DaveXR650 said:
I met Schreiner. He's a super nice guy!
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Schreiner and John Piper were together at Bethlehem Baptist in Minneapolis in the 1980s. Both taught classes at Bethel College and Seminary...alongside another theology teacher...Greg Boyd. Boyd turned into a heretical Open Theist and both Shreiner and Piper opposed him in debate. Piper went on to start his own seminary at Bethlehem. Shreiner moved on to Southern. Boyd is still spewing heresy at Bethel (my son attended and one of his roommates had to endure Boyd's hatred of Reformed theology for a semester). Bethel Seminary closed its campus and is now only an online school.

Way back in my early 20s, when I was still a free will bonehead, I spent a fall going to Schreiners Sunday School class. His questioning was helpful in my search to know God. I am in his debt.
And yes, Tom Schreiner is a great guy. Kind and gracious to an ignorant kid who just wanted to know Jesus.
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
37818. Calvinism doesn't accept the idea that God can know something is going to happen and at the same time not have anything to do with it happening. We could go back and forth forever on this.
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
DaveXR650 said:
37818. Calvinism doesn't accept the idea that God can know something is going to happen and at the same time not have anything to do with it happening. We could go back and forth forever on this.
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Foreknowledge of God does not mean that he merely saw that to happen, but that he caused it to happen!
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
DaveXR650 said:
37818. Calvinism doesn't accept the idea that God can know something is going to happen and at the same time not have anything to do with it happening. We could go back and forth forever on this.
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Foreknowlege refers to whom God foreknows.
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
Look. If God knows Bill in 2022 is going to reject the gospel, that is foreknowledge. But why doesn't God have the Holy Spirit influence him more. If he doesn't choose to then your position is exactly the same as a Calvinist. God was still sovereign in whether Bill gets saved. And Bill is still responsible because he chose to reject the Gospel. I don't buy the non-Calvinist "foreknowledge" use. To really believe that you have to either believe in an open theism or you have to believe that the choice of a person believing really is totally up to their sovereign will without any influence needed from God. And that is a Pelagian position whether you like it or not.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
DaveXR650 said:
Look. If God knows Bill in 2022 is going to reject the gospel, that is foreknowledge. But why doesn't God have the Holy Spirit influence him more. If he doesn't choose to then your position is exactly the same as a Calvinist. God was still sovereign in whether Bill gets saved. And Bill is still responsible because he chose to reject the Gospel. I don't buy the non-Calvinist "foreknowledge" use. To really believe that you have to either believe in an open theism or you have to believe that the choice of a person believing really is totally up to their sovereign will without any influence needed from God. And that is a Pelagian position whether you like it or not.
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1 Peter 1:2, ". . . Elect according to the foreknowledge of God . . . ."
Romans 8:29, ". . . For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate . . . ."
God always knew those who are His. It is just we in time do not know until our time.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
The difference between the saved and the lost are whose names remain in the book of life. Revelation 20:15. There is a condition upon which one's name is not removed, Revelation 3:5 and 1 John 5:4-5.
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
DaveXR650 said:
Look. If God knows Bill in 2022 is going to reject the gospel, that is foreknowledge. But why doesn't God have the Holy Spirit influence him more. If he doesn't choose to then your position is exactly the same as a Calvinist. God was still sovereign in whether Bill gets saved. And Bill is still responsible because he chose to reject the Gospel. I don't buy the non-Calvinist "foreknowledge" use. To really believe that you have to either believe in an open theism or you have to believe that the choice of a person believing really is totally up to their sovereign will without any influence needed from God. And that is a Pelagian position whether you like it or not.
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The logical endpoint for a free will salvation is Open Theism
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
The difference between the saved and the lost are whose names remain in the book of life. Revelation 20:15. There is a condition upon which one's name is not removed, Revelation 3:5 and 1 John 5:4-5.
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Once entered in there, never will be erased
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Servant of Lord Jesus said:
Once entered in there, never will be erased
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No place in all of Holy Scripture are names said to be added to the book.
Psalms 69:27-28, ". . . let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book . . . ." Is the second reference. First reference, Exodus 32:33, ". . . And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. . . ."
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
@DaveXR650,
The problem is over the interpertations versus what the texts actually say. And then the disagreeing on what the text accually said means what it said - just to fit one's interpertations.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
The difference between the saved and the lost are whose names remain in the book of life. Revelation 20:15. There is a condition upon which one's name is not removed, Revelation 3:5 and 1 John 5:4-5.
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Are you saying that all the names of all humanity are written into the Covenant and then, afterward, God starts erasing them out?
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
Are you saying that all the names of all humanity are written into the Covenant and then, afterward, God starts erasing them out?
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If yes, why should we even tell them the good news, since are already saved and could choose to get lost ?
 
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