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Flesh vs Spirit

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A

Aaron

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Scandal said:
The debate between us is regarding the means by which man is made alive. You believe its through the means of an inward secret irresistible working. I believe its through Christ's words...the GOSPEL. Though it can be ignored, traded in for a lie, disregarded, and maligned it is still sufficient to bring flesh to life; thus all stand in judgement by the very words Christ spoke (Jn 12) without any excuse (Rm 1).
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The subject in dispute is whether faith is an operation of human nature, or whether it is endowed supernaturally by the Spirit of God.

You already affirmed that it's part of human nature, and simply dormant until excited by the right stimulus.

Then you consumed vast quatities of bandwidth in trying to erase the distinction between the flesh and the Spirit, that is, between man's natural abilities and those abilities with which he is specially endowed by the Holy Spirit.

Since they're both given by God, you asked, and I quote, "WHAT IS THE FREAKIN' DIFFERENCE?"

So, what is your answer now? Is there a difference?
 
Skandelon

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Aaron said:
You already affirmed that it's part of human nature, and simply dormant until excited by the right stimulus.
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Provide the quote where I said this...or where you think I said this. Please allow my words to speak for themselves. Your contrivances make things much more complicated than necessary.

Then you consumed vast quatities of bandwidth in trying to erase the distinction between the flesh and the Spirit, that is, between man's natural abilities and those abilities with which he is specially endowed by the Holy Spirit.
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Actually, I'm doing quite the opposite by attempting to argue a point with which there should be no disagreement, which is: ALL good things come from God. Any faith of man (which is good) is a direct result of the work of God, but it is a work that can be resisted. Thus, God gets all the glory for his provision and man gets all the blame for his rebellion.

Since they're both given by God, you asked, and I quote, "WHAT IS THE FREAKIN' DIFFERENCE?"
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I was referring to WHEN the ability to do something "good" was given...from birth (natural) versus later in life. It doesn't matter when the ability is given because if it is GOOD it MUST be from God.

Personally, I believe the grace to believe the gospel comes when one hears the gospel...seems the most logical, simple and basic understanding to me. "Faith comes through hearing..."

So, what is your answer now? Is there a difference?
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If it is good it is from God, if it is not it is from the flesh. Faith is good thus it is from God. Can I be anymore clear?
 
Q

quantumfaith

Active Member
Aaron said:
The subject in dispute is whether faith is an operation of human nature, or whether it is endowed supernaturally by the Spirit of God.

You already affirmed that it's part of human nature, and simply dormant until excited by the right stimulus.

Then you consumed vast quatities of bandwidth in trying to erase the distinction between the flesh and the Spirit, that is, between man's natural abilities and those abilities with which he is specially endowed by the Holy Spirit.

Since they're both given by God, you asked, and I quote, "WHAT IS THE FREAKIN' DIFFERENCE?"

So, what is your answer now? Is there a difference?
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I find your use " scandal" to be abhorrent and extremely immature and childish. Is this what we should continue to expect from you?
 
kyredneck

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
quantumfaith said:
I find your use " scandal" to be abhorrent and extremely immature and childish. Is this what we should continue to expect from you?
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...oh puh-leese, you must reallyreallyreally be lookin for sumthin to get tore up about....does it bother you when he's called Skan or Skandy?
 
A

Aaron

Member
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Scandal said:
If it is good it is from God, if it is not it is from the flesh. Faith is good thus it is from God. Can I be anymore clear?
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Yes. You can say whether faith is an operation of human nature, or whether it is endowed supernaturally by the Holy Spirit.
 
A

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
quantumfaith said:
I find your use " scandal" to be abhorrent and extremely immature and childish. Is this what we should continue to expect from you?
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I find your willingess to justify his usurpation of a title of Christ quite abominable, but I've pretty much kept that to myself.
 
Skandelon

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
quantumfaith said:
I find your use " scandal" to be abhorrent and extremely immature and childish. Is this what we should continue to expect from you?
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Don't worry about it. I told him I didn't mind. A "Scandal" is when the truth of a mistake is brought into the light and I can't think of a better word to discribe what I do here daily as I reveal the mistakes of well intended brethren like Aaron. I consider it a compliment. :smilewinkgrin:
 
A

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
'Preciate the support, fellas, but I am not at all put off by these cavils. The only minor irritation is Scandal's persistent refusal to give a straight answer.

quantum and DHK will say straight out that faith is an operation of human nature and not a supernatural endowment of the Holy Spirit. Scandal won't. Scandal will try to bury the issue under an avalanch of irrelevant words and topics. Ask him about a 100-watt bulb, and he wants to talk about diodes and transistors.
 
P

preacher4truth

Active Member
Skandelon said:
Don't worry about it. I told him I didn't mind. A "Scandal" is when the truth of a mistake is brought into the light and I can't think of a better word to discribe what I do here daily as I reveal the mistakes of well intended brethren like Aaron. I consider it a compliment. :smilewinkgrin:
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That's funny, I've not once seen you reveal a mistake. Ever. Change topics, add a rabbit trail and straw man? Now that I've seen daily from you, hence Aarons light bulb to transistors and diodes illustration fit perfectly.

- Peace
 
A

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
How can I make the question simpler?

Is faith an operation of the human nature? Yes or No.
 
Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aaron said:
Yes. You can say whether faith is an operation of human nature, or whether it is endowed supernaturally by the Holy Spirit.
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Again & Again & Again .....from Augustine down, that question has been both what defines your theology & separates you from unlike thinkers in their interpretation of Scripture. Truly Skan, we already know your answer. Right!
 
Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aaron said:
'Preciate the support, fellas, but I am not at all put off by these cavils. The only minor irritation is Scandal's persistent refusal to give a straight answer.

quantum and DHK will say straight out that faith is an operation of human nature and not a supernatural endowment of the Holy Spirit. Scandal won't. Scandal will try to bury the issue under an avalanch of irrelevant words and topics. Ask him about a 100-watt bulb, and he wants to talk about diodes and transistors.
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Because how do you say God is totally sovereign then say salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God & Man. The result is a theology that is not exclusively "God Centered"
 
Skandelon

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Aaron said:
Yes. You can say whether faith is an operation of human nature, or whether it is endowed supernaturally by the Holy Spirit.
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Ok, lets look that the options you have presented:

1. Faith is an operation of human nature
2. Faith is endowed supernaturally by the Holy Spirit.

I would call this a false dichotomy, because you present them as if they are the only two available options. Yet, Scripture doesn't use either of those phrases. So, I'll answer with the third option thus revealing your hidden mistake and living up to my namesake. :)

3. "Faith comes by hearing..." The message is supernaturally produced, preserved and carried by the Holy Spirit to the whole world, and while some may "trade in this truth in for a lie" they will stand "without excuse."

So, since the message itself is supernaturally breathed by God, I really can't say that faith produced by it is "natural." Likewise, your use of the word "endowed" at least implies an irresistible component..."like heredity endowed me with a big nose"...so that option really doesn't work either.

BUT, even if faith was what you want to call a "natural operation" in response to a supernaturally produced message of the HS, that ability (being "good") would have been given to us BY GOD, right? So, that is why I asked about the "freakin difference?" Either way, all credit goes to God.
 
A

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Skandelon said:
Ok, lets look that the options you have presented:

1. Faith is an operation of human nature
2. Faith is endowed supernaturally by the Holy Spirit.

I would call this a false dichotomy, because you present them as if they are the only two available options. Yet, Scripture doesn't use either of those phrases. So, I'll answer with the third option thus revealing your hidden mistake and living up to my namesake. :)

3. "Faith comes by hearing..." The message is supernaturally produced, preserved and carried by the Holy Spirit to the whole world, and while some may "trade in this truth in for a lie" they will stand "without excuse."

So, since the message itself is supernaturally breathed by God, I really can't say that faith produced by it is "natural." Likewise, your use of the word "endowed" at least implies an irresistible component..."like heredity endowed me with a big nose"...so that option really doesn't work either.

BUT, even if faith was what you want to call a "natural operation" in response to a supernaturally produced message of the HS, that ability (being "good") would have been given to us BY GOD, right? So, that is why I asked about the "freakin difference?" Either way, all credit goes to God.
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IOW:
Logically, from the prima facia reading of the Scriptures, it would follow that faith is "unnatural," but my Noncalvinistic presuppositions forbid me to accept an irresistible work of the Holy Ghost, so I have to reject that premise. So the truth is, I can't say. Hey, whether it's of the flesh or of the Spirit, it's all of God, so what's the difference?

​
That's like saying, I can't tell the difference between milk and urine, but hey, they're both from the cow, so what's the difference?
 
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