Flesh vs Spirit

[Aaron]

NO!!!!:smilewinkgrin:

:thumbs::love2::thumbs:

 

[webdog]

How can I make the question simpler?

Is faith an operation of the human nature? Yes or No.

No, it is not an operation of the "human nature". Yes, it is a trait found in humanity.

 

[preacher4truth]

Not at all, it's not of the will of the flesh.

Error-in that for sure. :wavey:

 

[webdog]

So, faith must be given to man. I guess God gave men their faith in false gods and in themselves too.

These mystical, mythical "gift of faith" discussions are comical.

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith comes from some where else. I would still believe the world is flat if it wasn't for faith that comes from someone else. I never been to outer space to see the world is round or oval I will have to believe in the pictures provided by someone else. I can chose not to believe them. Many by faith believes that America been to the moon they seen the pictures, but there is some that don't believe.

 

[preacher4truth]

Faith comes from God, not from "within."

These mystical, mythical, "mustering" "had it myself faith" discussions are fallacies and erroneous theology.

 

[Skandelon]

IOW:

but my Noncalvinistic presuppositions forbid me to accept an irresistible work of the Holy Ghost​

Again, why must a gift be irresistibly "endowed" for the giver to be given glory for giving it? That is the real point of contention here.

You wrongly insist that for the gift to be credited to the giver that the means of giving must be irresistible, which is biblically unfounded and gives most of mankind the perfect excuse for not believing on judgement day.

so I have to reject that premise.

I reject the premise of an irresistible working of the HS because it is NOT supported in the scripture, period. The fact I accepted that premise for a decade of my life when I thought that was what scripture taught proves my willingness to submit to the scriptures teachings.

So the truth is, I can't say. Hey, whether it's of the flesh or of the Spirit, it's all of God, so what's the difference?

You are incorrigible Aaron.

I've presented a very well established and much expounded upon view of the nature of faith in respond a powerful Gospel truth. Disagree with it, debate it, discuss it, but don't pretend as if its not a straight and well established answer. Such only reveals your own lack of knowledge of the view with which you seemingly despise.

That's like saying, I can't tell the difference between milk and urine, but hey, they're both from the cow, so what's the difference?

I guess i should expect such an answer from one who tends toward extreme deterministic views, in which God produces both the good and the evil in like manner. :tear:​

 

[Winman]

Why don't folks look at what the scripture says, the answer is given in Galatians 3:2.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

OK, this is not complicated here, what is the order shown?

Hearing ---> Faith ---> Receiving the Holy Spirit.

Say what you will, this is what the scriptures show. Want to see more?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

What is the order shown here?

Hearing the gospel ---> Trusting (believeing) ---> Being sealed by the Spirit

Still not enough? You need more?

Jn 20:31 But these things are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believeing ye might have life through his name.

What is the order shown here?

These things written (word of God) ---> believeing Jesus is the Christ ---> having life

If regeneration is defined as life, then no man is regenerated until after he hears the word of God and believes it.

If a person must have the Holy Spirit to be regenerated, then a person is not regenerated until after they hear the gospel and believe it.

Here are three verses that all agree perfectly on the order of salvation.

I challenge anyone here to show even one verse in all scripture that shows a man receives the Spirit, or has life before hearing God's word and believeing.

If your doctrine is really true and scriptural, it should be easy to show.

I await the scriptures you will provide to prove your view.

 

[psalms109:31]

Hebrews 11
Faith in Action
1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

2 Corinthians 4
16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. 17 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, 18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

John 20:29
Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

Do we see ourselves in heaven right now with Jesus? No, but by the faith that comes from the words of Jesus said

John 14
Jesus Comforts His Disciples
1 “Do not let your heart be troubled; [Or you believe in God]believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And you know the way where I am going.” 5 Thomas *said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

 

[Aaron]

No, it is not an operation of the "human nature". Yes, it is a trait found in humanity.

:laugh::laugh: So your answer is yes AND no. :laugh::laugh:

 

[Aaron]

Again, why must a gift be irresistibly "endowed" for the giver to be given glory for giving it? That is the real point of contention here.

No, it isn't. It's peripheral.

"I don't know" is the closest thing to a straight answer given thus far. And you couldn't even say it that way. The one in need of the weeping smilie is you. You are in a precarious situation indeed not to be able to tell the difference between the Spirit and the flesh, and you're prevented by that one arbitrary presupposition. And more, you couldn't change your mind of your "own free will" any more than you could freely decide to grow wings and fly.

You are my best natural evidence that belief, i.e. faith, is a state being. There is a carnal faith, and that is the faith that webdog, DHK, and quantum describe, and there is a spiritual faith begotten by God.

No flesh will glory in His sight. Not even "good" flesh.

 

[Skandelon]

No, it isn't. It's peripheral.

You'd like it to be because you know by answering the question you expose the weakness of your argument. You know full well that God doesn't have to give something irresistibly to be given the glory as the giver, yet that is the crux of your argument.

Who gets the credit? Flesh or Spirit?

You just can't stand it that our view GIVES all credit to the Spirit because you THINK you have the corner on that market. That is what this debate is all about and you know it. Peripheral!? Yeah, right! :laugh: Good one! :thumbsup:

 

[webdog]

:laugh::laugh: So your answer is yes AND no. :laugh::laugh:

Based on your poorly worded question.

 

[Skandelon]

"Faith, generally, is the assent given to truth; and divine faith is that which is given to truth divinely revealed." -Arminius

This quote from Jacobus Arminius may help our discussion because it helps show the difference in a "general faith," which is faith in something true (i.e. Washington was our first president), and "divine faith," which is faith placed in truth divinely revealed (i.e. Jesus is Lord).

So, while man may naturally believe any revealed truth, it is divine faith when that truth has been divinely revealed. The power and salvific nature of the truth is found in its source, not its recipient. Thus, when the recipient accepts this divinely revealed truth the source receives all glory for sending it, but if a recipient rejects this divinely revealed truth no one should claim a deficiency in the power of that truth for that would bring into question the power of its source. The ONLY deficiency is in the recipient of the divinely revealed truth.

 

[Aaron]

That's just another way of saying that men possess faith by nature.

 

[Aaron]

Thus, when the recipient accepts this divinely revealed truth the source receives all glory for sending it, but if a recipient rejects this divinely revealed truth no one should claim a deficiency in the power of that truth for that would bring into question the power of its source. The ONLY deficiency is in the recipient of the divinely revealed truth.

And so, those who receive Christ do so because they aren't as fallen as those who don't. God used the same power in each group, but one receives the truth because by nature he is a better person than the one who doesn't. So it's not according to God's purposes according to election, but according to the quality of the one who hears the preaching.

 

[Luke2427]

Again, why must a gift be irresistibly "endowed" for the giver to be given glory for giving it? That is the real point of contention here.

Because the giver can boast that he had the good sense and moral uprightness to accept such a gift.

If I give you a thousand dollars and you turn it down, what will people say about you?

They will not glorify you at all. They will say, "Skandelon is a moron!"

But if I give you a thousand dollars and you take it, what will people say about your choice to take it?

They will give you some credit. They will say something like, "Hey! If I was Skandelon I would have the good sense to accept it too!!"

But if you are starving and too stupid to accept my gift and I come by and stop you from being stupid by my own power and make you willing to receive the thousand dollars for your own good and for my own glory- guess who gets ALL the credit.

I do.

You wrongly insist that for the gift to be credited to the giver that the means of giving must be irresistible, which is biblically unfounded and gives most of mankind the perfect excuse for not believing on judgement day.
I reject the premise of an irresistible working of the HS because it is NOT supported in the scripture, period. The fact I accepted that premise for a decade of my life when I thought that was what scripture taught proves my willingness to submit to the scriptures teachings.

No. It proves, alongside many other proofs that keep surfacing, that you never really understood Calvinism.

You are incorrigible Aaron.

Shouldn't you give yourself a warning here? Isn't this a personal assault? Is it not an insult?

Is incorrigible EVER a compliment?

 

[Luke2427]

And so, those who receive Christ do so because they aren't as fallen as those who don't. God used the same power in each group, but one receives the truth because by nature he is a better person than the one who doesn't. So it's not according to God's purposes according to election, but according to the quality of the one who hears the preaching.

Exactly!

This is the issue that they will not face, Aaron.

If John goes to heaven and Jack goes to hell- why?

Is it because John is just a little less depraved than Jack?

They CANNOT answer this question.

You are absolutely right here. It has to do with the QUALITY of the one who hears the preaching- that is what they ultimately believe.

The best of us go to heaven and the worst of us go to hell.

That is the foundation of Arminianism.

 

[Skandelon]

And so, those who receive Christ do so because they aren't as fallen as those who don't.

Wrong. That would be an excuse for those who rejected Christ.

They freely chose to trade the truth that was clearly known and understood in for a lie.

God used the same power in each group, but one receives the truth because by nature he is a better person

Wrong again. That would be an excuse for those who rejected.

You seem to presume that the only reason someone can choose one option over the other is if that were determined to do so by God...i.e. "he is better" but that begs the question by presuming the very premise the libertarian rejects.

So it's not according to God's purposes according to election, but according to the quality of the one who hears the preaching.

Well, that would depend upon ones view of divine election and the nature of free will, both of which you presume must be in accordance with YOUR dogma. Question beg much?

 

[Skandelon]

Exactly!

This is the issue that they will not face, Aaron.

If John goes to heaven and Jack goes to hell- why?

Is it because John is just a little less depraved than Jack?

They CANNOT answer this question.

We've been down this road before Luke, remember?

Suppose Jack and John are both followers of Christ and John is a Arminian while Jack is a Calvinist and they both die believing this doctrine. Why does one believe "correct" doctrine and one doesn't? Is Jack less depraved than John?