Flesh vs Spirit

[Robert Snow]

I am simply going to have to assume that you don't always read. I have attempted on more than one occasion to make "peace" with PFT, to soften the edges, but the continued proclamations and inaccuracies continue. I have never claimed to be the paradigm of consistency, and yes I am a hypocrite at times....and YOU are not? As for inflammatory tendencies, consistency again comes to my mind regarding you, and you being the Pastor/Teacher should be the one modeling thus for all others.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[JesusFan]

Provide the quote where I said this...or where you think I said this. Please allow my words to speak for themselves. Your contrivances make things much more complicated than necessary.

Actually, I'm doing quite the opposite by attempting to argue a point with which there should be no disagreement, which is: ALL good things come from God. Any faith of man (which is good) is a direct result of the work of God, but it is a work that can be resisted. Thus, God gets all the glory for his provision and man gets all the blame for his rebellion.

I was referring to WHEN the ability to do something "good" was given...from birth (natural) versus later in life. It doesn't matter when the ability is given because if it is GOOD it MUST be from God.

Personally, I believe the grace to believe the gospel comes when one hears the gospel...seems the most logical, simple and basic understanding to me. "Faith comes through hearing..."

If it is good it is from God, if it is not it is from the flesh. Faith is good thus it is from God. Can I be anymore clear?

Do you hold to it being all have inate faith within themselves, and that the Gospel is means by which we can "energize" our faith out and get saved?

or that God does 'additional" act of grace towards people in order to get them 'ready' to hear the Gospel, and that it is God saving the person by faith in christ?

 

[preacher4truth]

That's both hilarious and sad at the same time. There was first of all never any attempt for peace, "on more than one occasion" that is totally false, and the [snip - please don't get personal]. And you teach new Christians? Wow.

I separate myself from brethren who walk this way as an lifestyle.

- Peace

 

[quantumfaith]

That's both hilarious and sad at the same time. There was first of all never any attempt for peace, "on more than one occasion" that is totally false, and the caustic, malicious dissensions, divisions, sowing of discord, antagonisms, drive-bys to create strife are consistently part of your character. And you teach new Christians? Wow.

I separate myself from brethren who walk this way as an lifestyle.

- Peace

NO SIR!!!!!!!@!!!!!!!! It is not false, this spoken from someone who publisizes a PM, you have no room my friend, no room.

 

[Skandelon]

Do you hold to it being all have inate faith within themselves, and that the Gospel is means by which we can "energize" our faith out and get saved?

I wish I could help you to see how inane that question appears to someone who holds to my perspective. I'm not saying that in a derogatory manner, because I used to think like you so I know where you are coming from. I just mean that I want to help you see that question from our view and see how utterly backwards it is.

Let me try to put you in my position by asking you a similar question from another perspective:

Do you hold that all believers have innate Calvinistic beliefs, but that the Institutes of Christian Religion is the means by which that Calvinistic belief is energized and a believer becomes a Calvinist?

I know the question sounds ridiculous, right? That is the way I feel when you ask me the question above.

Faith in doctrine, whether its the basic doctrines of the gospel message, or the more complex doctrines of soteriology come through HEARING those doctrines. There is NO dormant "Calvinistic faith" just waiting to be energized by Calvin's teaching and likewise there is no "Gospel faith" just waiting to be energized. The question itself is just strange and overly complex.

We hear truth and we believe it or we don't. It's our choice and thus we are held accountable for it. The thing that makes THIS TRUTH different is its source. This truth is FROM GOD, thus making it uniquely powerful and effective to bring reconciliation.

 

[DHK]

Here's the conclusion of the matter. Men do not possess faith by nature. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing. Faith is endowed by the Holy Spirit. No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

What has that got to do with faith??
Little children aren't filled with Holy Spirit. Yet, Jesus said "unless you have faith as a little child you cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Apparently little children have faith. All people have faith. It is the object of their faith that is important. The object of a child's faith is their parents. The object of my faith is Christ. What is the object of your faith?

Men do not gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles, and neither can faith be found in the corrupt tree of human nature. On the contrary, human nature is at enmity with God. It hates God, and does not want peace with God.

Why use Scripture out of context to prove a point? That text is never used in the context of faith. It is used in Mat.7 in the context of false teachers. Your example is wrong.
We can all make analogies that seem to make sense but in reality are ridiculous, like the one you just make. You have a perfectly working hand. But you just got a bruise on your thumb. Bruises don't belong on perfectly working thumbs. Answer: Cut off the thumb to remove the bruise. How can a bruise be found in a perfectly working hand? Yes, I can come up with ridiculous sounding analogies too.
The fact is that the human nature, though it be at odds with God, is still resident in the human body. And that being the case, man is able to have faith.

Faith is not imparted by the mere mechanics of preaching the Gospel, just as the sons of Sceva could not cast out demons by the mere mentioning of the name of Jesus.*

Their faith was not in Jesus Christ. Christ was not the object of their faith. Read the account.

Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. (Acts 19:13)
And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? (Acts 19:15)
--"The Christ Paul preached" is not Christ. One might say he is "a hearsay person." They didn't know who Christ was. They were "vagabond Jews" but Jews nevertheless. Their faith was in another religion not in Christ.

The Gospel is not some kind of hocus pocus, as if the mere physical utterance of the words carries any power, as Scandal would have us believe.

What kind of false accusation are you making, and where did Skan ever say it was. Here is a verse he often points to:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)
--What is the gospel? It is the power of God unto salvation.
You may believe in hocus pocus, I don't know. But the scriptures declare that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)
--To us which are saved it is the power of God.
It is not hocus pocus to us (maybe you); but to us it is the power of God.

Those who become the sons of God do not become so by the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. So it is not by him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Throw pearls all you want at swine, and they remain swine.

You also can deny Scripture or at least refuse to reconcile it.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12)
--Verse 12 precedes verse 13 and can't be left out.
One becomes a child of God by receiving Christ and believing on his name. That is what the verse teaches. But you will ignore that plain teaching won't you?

And so why the parables? As I've explained. (Actually, as Christ explained.) They do not have an ear to hear. As we see in numerous other places, they trampled the plain words of Christ under their feet and turned to rend Him. They do not have an ear to hear, so even what they had was taken from them.

That was spoken of the Pharisees. Is it spoken of every unsaved man. Does the verse "Seek ye the Lord while he may yet be found," have any meaning to you? If the command to seek is given, then obviously it can be obeyed.

Who is God addressing here:
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isaiah 45:22)
--"All the ends of the earth" are more than just the Jews.
It is evident that it is possible for unsaved men and women to turn to Christ and put their faith in him.

 

[JesusFan]

I wish I could help you to see how inane that question appears to someone who holds to my perspective. I'm not saying that in a derogatory manner, because I used to think like you so I know where you are coming from. I just mean that I want to help you see that question from our view and see how utterly backwards it is.

Let me try to put you in my position by asking you a similar question from another perspective:

Do you hold that all believers have innate Calvinistic beliefs, but that the Institutes of Christian Religion is the means by which that Calvinistic belief is energized and a believer becomes a Calvinist?

You are mixing apples and oranges here...
believe that Dog IS biblical for how God works in doctrine of sotierology, but hold that far more important is the fact that he saves his own elect and chosen in Christ!

The process of getting saved is DoG, but He indeed leaves us freedom to chose Cal/Arm/none etc!

I know the question sounds ridiculous, right? That is the way I feel when you ask me the question above.

Faith in doctrine, whether its the basic doctrines of the gospel message, or the more complex doctrines of soteriology come through HEARING those doctrines. There is NO dormant "Calvinistic faith" just waiting to be energized by Calvin's teaching and likewise there is no "Gospel faith" just waiting to be energized. The question itself is just strange and overly complex.

problem is that unless God applies grace towards us in order to get us 'woke up" enough to hear and believe in jesus, that it falls on deaf ears!

We hear truth and we believe it or we don't. It's our choice and thus we are held accountable for it. The thing that makes THIS TRUTH different is its source. This truth is FROM GOD, thus making it uniquely powerful and effective to bring reconciliation.

The word is effective to reach us, but ONLY is effectual to those whom God has already 'prepared" for the message

We agree pretty much on process in salvation, in how God uses Gospel as agent to bring the faith to us, its just there there MUST be a processbefore that when God "prepares" us to be actually able to be alive enough to hear and respond to it!

 

[Aaron]

What has that got to do with faith??

Is faith a good thing?

 

[DHK]

Is faith a good thing?

Are your taste buds a good thing?

 

[Skandelon]

JF, until you learn to use the quote feature I'm going to have to boycott your posts. Sorry, but I've asked nicely, I've sent PMs, I've explained how to do it, and I don't know how else to get you to learn that feature.

Press the edit button and practice using that feature. Please.

 

[quantumfaith]

JF, until you learn to use the quote feature I'm going to have to boycott your posts. Sorry, but I've asked nicely, I've sent PMs, I've explained how to do it, and I don't know how else to get you to learn that feature.

Press the edit button and practice using that feature. Please.

If you have a copy of those instructions for efficiently using the quote features, I would appreciate a copy.

 

[Winman]

The word is effective to reach us, but ONLY is effectual to those whom God has already 'prepared" for the message

We agree pretty much on process in salvation, in how God uses Gospel as agent to bring the faith to us, its just there there MUST be a processbefore that when God "prepares" us to be actually able to be alive enough to hear and respond to it!

False. The word of God effectually works in those that believe it.

1 Thes 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

You say God must do a work (regenerate) in a man before he can believe, the scriptures say you must believe the word of God before it effectually works in you.

Once again, Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of what scripture says. You would think some would notice this, but Calvinists never do.

 

[Aaron]

Are your taste buds a good thing?

I know there is nothing good in them. Paul wasn't talking about members, he was talking about what was in them, what animated them. And the tongue is an unruly evil full of deadly poison.

But I've grown weary of nonresponsive posts. You won't answer the question because you can't escape the logical conclusion, so I will answer it for you. Is faith a good thing? Yes. Therefore, it is not a part of human nature.

 

[JesusFan]

False. The word of God effectually works in those that believe it.

1 Thes 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

You say God must do a work (regenerate) in a man before he can believe, the scriptures say you must believe the word of God before it effectually works in you.

Once again, Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of what scripture says. You would think some would notice this, but Calvinists never do.

Those "dead" in the spritual sense cannot believe in jesus, as they have ears unable to "hear!"

 

[DHK]

I know there is nothing good in them. Paul wasn't talking about members, he was talking about what was in them, what animated them. And the tongue is an unruly evil full of deadly poison.

But I've grown weary of nonresponsive posts. You won't answer the question because you can't escape the logical conclusion, so I will answer it for you. Is faith a good thing? Yes. Therefore, it is not a part of human nature.

We are made in the image and likeness of God. When Adam fell that image was marred. Our nature became an Adamic nature. But what was the image of God that God made us in? It certainly wasn't physical. It had to be different than the animals.

This is what I believe.
We are tripartite beings: body, soul and spirit; as God is a triune God.
The soul is the mind, the seat of our affections, the will; that which enables us to reason and to choose (have faith).
The spirit is that part of us which enables us to communicate with God.
We are made in a moral likeness of God as well, having many of the same attributes of him, which are found in the fruit of the Spirit.

It is evident that are human nature contains faith. It is part of the nature that God made us with. An animal knows little about faith. We are set apart from animals. We were made in the image and likeness of God.

 

[Winman]

I know there is nothing good in them. Paul wasn't talking about members, he was talking about what was in them, what animated them. And the tongue is an unruly evil full of deadly poison.

But I've grown weary of nonresponsive posts. You won't answer the question because you can't escape the logical conclusion, so I will answer it for you. Is faith a good thing? Yes. Therefore, it is not a part of human nature.

Yes, Paul did say that in his flesh dwelleth no good thing, but his will and mind delighted in the law of God. When Paul said this, he was speaking of the perspective of an unregenerate man. How do I know that? Because Paul said he was sold under sin (Rom 7:14). But in Romans 8:2 he says the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made him free from the law of sin and death.

So, Romans 7:14-25 is spoken from the perspective of an unregenerate man, and Paul said his will and mind desired to do good, but he was brought into captivity to the law of sin in his members.

This is what Jesus meant when he told his disciples;

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

This was said before Jesus breathed on his disciples and they received the Holy Spirit after his resurrection. So, Jesus was speaking of their spirit, not the Holy Spirit here.

Man is more than flesh.

 

[Skandelon]

Is faith a good thing? Yes. Therefore, it is not a part of human nature.

Right, it's a response to God's good nature in which, by his Spirit, he calls all men everywhere to be reconciled to Him. Nothing in the human nature prevents that response because the Spirit of truth which brings us the Powerful life-giving Gospel appeal is stronger than the nature of fallen man. It doesn't return void, but accomplishes the purpose for which it was sent.

Is that purpose to save all who hear it? No. Its purpose is to make an appeal: BE RECONCILED TO GOD. It does NOT fail in making that appeal and thus those who perish do so for one reason and one reason ONLY....because they "refused to love the truth and so be saved."

 

[Skandelon]

If you have a copy of those instructions for efficiently using the quote features, I would appreciate a copy.

You should find all the answers you need HERE>>>

Let me know if you have questions.

 

[Aaron]

Right, it's a response to God's good nature in which, by his Spirit, he calls all men everywhere to be reconciled to Him.

The response of whom—as if I'll get a straight answer—the natural man, or the new man? And don't try to say neither or both. It's one or the other.

 

[Aaron]

By the way. Faith is not a response. Men may respond in faith, but faith is not their response, it is their state of being: the substance of things hoped for. But for the sake of argument, we'll adopt your redefinition for now.