Florida Principal, Athletic Director Could Go to Jail for Prayer Before Lunch

[Johnv]

You have been largely inconsistent on this issue. First you stated that Washington never used the word Christ in any of his writings. Then you felt compelled to admit to one.

That's where you're wrong. I've said from the beginning of this thread that Washington's PRIVATE writings are devoid of any reference to Christ, and that his PUBLIC writings are nearly as silent (noting the one reference in the Indian letter).

Now I have shown the use of Christ to be quite often

Out of 20,000 pages of Washington's writings, you found three, and they're all references to other peoples' religious practice, not his own. Again, Jefferson and Franklin wrote similarly, as did many Enlightened of the day who were not Christian.


As far as your statements disparaging my viewpoint, my education, and in some cases, my faith, those just aren't necessary. I'm all for engaging in civil, healthy, and respectful discussion. There's no need to be come to agreement on every or most topics. I have no problem with the points of view of people who disagree with me. But resort to personal attacks is uncalled for. I enjoy my conversations and discussions with you, but I don't appreciate yoru crass undertones.

 

[FlyForFun]

That's where you're wrong. I've said from the beginning of this thread that Washington's PRIVATE writings are devoid of any reference to Christ, and that his PUBLIC writings are nearly as silent (noting the one reference in the Indian letter).

Out of 20,000 pages of Washington's writings, you found three, and they're all references to other peoples' religious practice, not his own. Again, Jefferson and Franklin wrote similarly, as did many Enlightened of the day who were not Christian.

So what's your point?

 

[Johnv]

My point is that the historical facts indicate that Washington was not a Christian, and never claimed to be a Christian.

 

[Revmitchell]

That's where you're wrong. I've said from the beginning of this thread that Washington's PRIVATE writings are devoid of any reference to Christ, and that his PUBLIC writings are nearly as silent (noting the one reference in the Indian letter).

And any reference to Christ was proven to be incorrect.

Out of 20,000 pages of Washington's writings, you found three, and they're all references to other peoples' religious practice, not his own.

This is just disingenuous, for him to speak to others about being Christian means he saw it as important for everyone. Your dismissal is a stretch and weak.

Again, Jefferson and Franklin wrote similarly, as did many Enlightened of the day who were not Christian.

So you say, but speaking of the importance of Christianity leads to an understanding of their principles. What you are doing is dancing around facts.

As far as your statements disparaging my viewpoint, my education, and in some cases, my faith, those just aren't necessary. I'm all for engaging in civil, healthy, and respectful discussion. There's no need to be come to agreement on every or most topics. I have no problem with the points of view of people who disagree with me. But resort to personal attacks is uncalled for. I enjoy my conversations and discussions with you, but I don't appreciate yoru crass undertones.

Oh you mean like I am a liar and ignorant or you were suspicious that windcatcher would not give the same consideration to muslims. Be careful of your positions. They are more and more inconsistent.

 

[FlyForFun]

My point is that the historical facts indicate that Washington was not a Christian, and never claimed to be a Christian.

"Historical fact?"

So you can determine whether he is or is not a Christian?

Wow...what a gift...raying:

 

[Johnv]

Oh you mean like I am a liar and ignorant or you were suspicious that windcatcher would not give the same consideration to muslims. Be careful of your positions. They are more and more inconsistent.

That's true. My position is that we should engage in respectful dialogue, and I acknowlege that I cross that line on occaision, something for which I should repent. You, on the other hand are usually consistent: You have no problem disrespecting people, and do it frequently.

 

[Johnv]

"Historical fact?" So you can determine whether he is or is not a Christian? Wow...what a gift...raying:

I'm not making a salvific judgement on the man. I'm refering to the historical record. His own writings indicate quite reasonably that he did not have a personal faith in Christ, but was a deist, committed Mason, and member of the Enlightmenment. Jefferson's and Franklin's writings are similar to Washington's in that respect, and to the best of my knowlege, no one here disputes the notion that they were nonchristian deists.

 

[FlyForFun]

I'm not making a salvific judgement on the man. I'm refering to the historical record. His own writings indicate quite reasonably that he did not have a personal faith in Christ, but was a deist, committed Mason, and member of the Enlightmenment. Jefferson's and Franklin's writings are similar to Washington's in that respect, and to the best of my knowlege, no one here disputes the notion that they were nonchristian deists.

Jefferson was openly hostile to Christianity.

Franklin imbibed deep from the French secularist well.

Evidently you conclude that Washington could not have been a Christian as he never "testified" of attending a Billy Sunday meeting and going forward to make a decision for Jesus.

You thus provide evidence of your ignorance of the 18th Century, which had a worldview steeped in Roman and Christian morality.

Is George Washington in Heaven?

I don't know, it's not my call.

Furthermore, it's meaningless to ask "Were the Founders Christian?"

More important is the question, "What were the fundamental assumptions about Man and society that shaped the founders as they crafted a national polity?"

 

[Johnv]

Evidently you conclude that Washington could not have been a Christian as he never "testified" of attending a Billy Sunday meeting and going forward to make a decision for Jesus.

No, I conclude that Washington wasn't Christian because in none of his writings, not even his private writings, does he ever reference a personal faith in Christ. There are thousands of pages of his private writings that exist today. Not one of them references Christ, although many of them reference God. The pastor of the church which he and his wife attended stated concisely,"Washington was a Deist", and an anoher pastor who knew him well stated "while Washington was very deferential to religion and its ceremonies, like nearly all the founders of the Republic, he was not a Christian, but a Deist."

Furthermore, it's meaningless to ask "Were the Founders Christian?"

To be fair, the reason it came up was that someone posed the question as to whether many of the founding fathers were deist. Another person replied "no". I replied something to the effect of about 10% of the founding fathers being deist, commenting that Washington was as well. And, well, here we are, several miles down the hijack hiway...

 

[RAdam]

Here is a historical fact for you. In general non-Christians do not see the importance of Christianity. In general non-Christians view the religion as vain and not worthwhile. I view Islam and Buddhism in much the same way. If you asked me to find virtue in Islam today I can't find any. Same with all false religions.

 

[FlyForFun]

No, I conclude that Washington wasn't Christian because in none of his writings, not even his private writings, does he ever reference a personal faith in Christ. There are thousands of pages of his private writings that exist today. Not one of them references Christ, although many of them reference God. The pastor of the church which he and his wife attended stated concisely,"Washington was a Deist", and an anoher pastor who knew him well stated "while Washington was very deferential to religion and its ceremonies, like nearly all the founders of the Republic, he was not a Christian, but a Deist."

Many Christians in Bible-believing churches are "Diests" -- to wit, "God is out there, and I'm down here."

It's sad, but a fact that only be remedied through better teaching, prayer, and care.

It's bad theology and history to assess a person's faith solely on letters.

My grandmother was a typical Edwardian French Canadian. Certain things were not discussed, as propriety meant these were private matters.

Unlike today, where every "Christian recording artist" wants to vent a spleen in front of 10,000 people.

Washington reflected his age.

 

[rbell]

wow...have we ever left the original topic behind.